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  1. #11
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    To argue is to remain idle. To stall perhaps.

    Avoiding argument however, inevitably leads to regression and forgetfulness.

  2. #12
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    Based solely on the OP: __=NF, but I do agree with you somewhat.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    I love debate and I rarely run into your problem, in person. I'm very good at persuasion. Online is a different story.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #14
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    The OP is markedly non-NF.
    Their typical stance against arguing is that it creates disharmony and unhappiness, often being unable to see past the ill-concieved notion that everyone wants to be everyone elses friend.
    The OP simply, and accurately, for the most part, noticed that in a debate, no one listens long enough to fully understand the opposition, having busied themselves too thoroughly in diagramming their own unenlightemed point.

    You display decent cooperation, though not in argument form in your rudimentary diagnosis of NF, which I presume to be more in line with what textbook typologists like Keirsey would say -- NFs being opposed to disagreement, where rationals value it.
    Before learning about typology, I never even noticed how argumentative I was, and if certainly wasn't something I valued.

    The precise negative of my situation is likely true of many most NFs.

  5. #15
    ThatGirl
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    I think that the biggest mistake rookies make is going in just debating, it is best to just let debate happen naturaly.

    *partially plegeruised"

    Being an ENTP everyone thinks I just love to argue and debate every little thing, but I just tell them "That's Bullshit! I do not!"

    "Give me three reasons why you would think that"

  6. #16
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Not having heard from the OP I can't get much further with my stuck spot here but I think, Nocapszy makes my point. When you talk about people not actually listening you are talking about what I'm talking about.

    It isn't about understanding, about hearing another, about stopping to think. It's more about one-up-manship. It's not communication. It's an empty exercise in showing off one's intellect and no improvements are possible. People get caught up in arguing about the arguing, definitions, whose defintion is better, etc. Everyone striving for the superior position. Metadebate. Amusing, but fruitless.

    Maybe that's what Lithium is saying?
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  7. #17
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    Not having heard from the OP I can't get much further with my stuck spot here but I think, Nocapszy makes my point. When you talk about people not actually listening you are talking about what I'm talking about.
    I think this extends to more than just argument and to communication in general, or maybe just faux-communication.

    I'm reminded of a time when I walked past a group of Long Islanders.. everyone of them was talking to each other but no one was listening. This is typical for them, but this time it was so comical.

  8. #18
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    The later just sounds like someone being an asshole....but yeah, assholes do like to argue.
    No they don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    I think that the biggest mistake rookies make is going in just debating, it is best to just let debate happen naturaly.
    I think it depends on what your goal is. If you just want to play with ideas and language, then it doesn't matter what you know, because you're not trying to win or learn, just mess around.

    Being an ENTP everyone thinks I just love to argue and debate every little thing, but I just tell them "That's Bullshit! I do am not!"
    FYP

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    Not having heard from the OP I can't get much further with my stuck spot here but I think, Nocapszy makes my point. When you talk about people not actually listening you are talking about what I'm talking about.

    It isn't about understanding, about hearing another, about stopping to think. It's more about one-up-manship. It's not communication. It's an empty exercise in showing off one's intellect and no improvements are possible. People get caught up in arguing about the arguing, definitions, whose defintion is better, etc. Everyone striving for the superior position. Metadebate. Amusing, but fruitless.

    Maybe that's what Lithium is saying?
    I hope you find some value in argument of some form.

    There is a big difference between "having" an argument, and "making" one. The skills of making valid arguments are indispensable to progress in the world.

    It saddens me that so many people take-up such a negative view of debate.

    Every scientific, mathematical, or engineering paper comprises an argument.

    The debate about definitions, standards, and ground-rules--the meta-debates are also incredibly vital to being correct.

    It matters if those papers are right or not. It matters a lot.

    A good paper presents strong arguments with a good thesis and good evidence to back up that thesis. The thesis of the paper may be a scientific hypothesis which was proven or dis-proven, a mathematical theorem proven or dis-proven, a novel engineering design proven or dis-proven, or something else.

    Most of human progress comes about due to the ability of people to reason.

    To reason is to make an argument to oneself.

    Nature cares not about our feelings about what is right. But if want stuff to work, we need to get things correct.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  10. #20
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Default Ressentiment and Reason

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I hope you find some value in argument of some form.

    There is a big difference between "having" an argument, and "making" one. The skills of making valid arguments are indispensable to progress in the world.

    It saddens me that so many people take-up such a negative view of debate.

    Every scientific, mathematical, or engineering paper comprises an argument.

    The debate about definitions, standards, and ground-rules--the meta-debates are also incredibly vital to being correct.

    It matters if those papers are right or not. It matters a lot.

    A good paper presents strong arguments with a good thesis and good evidence to back up that thesis. The thesis of the paper may be a scientific hypothesis which was proven or dis-proven, a mathematical theorem proven or dis-proven, a novel engineering design proven or dis-proven, or something else.

    Most of human progress comes about due to the ability of people to reason.

    To reason is to make an argument to oneself.

    Nature cares not about our feelings about what is right. But if want stuff to work, we need to get things correct.
    Ygolo is completely right.

    But what is more difficult to explain is the blank eyed hatred of reason.

    And the hatred of evidence and reason has a long history.

    It goes back to Aristotle and the Church, moving through fascism and communism and onto islamism.

    And in the plentiful and free West, the hatred of reason takes the form Romanticism and the New Age cult and our very own MBTI.

    And the hatred of reason is based on ressentiment, the bone deep - no the bone marrow deep - hatred of life.

    Ressentiment is so ugly it must conceal itself from the individual, but shows its face in cults.

    Ressentiment is implacable and paranoid and so cannot be reached by reason.

    Ressentiment is a clear and present danger to reason.

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