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  1. #151
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Okay, well now it seems you're changing your original argument. You said before that unauthorized killing would be akin to vandalizing a car.

    Re: testing -- is it a necessessity to test your children in this way? Do you think people should have their children registered as humans? If so, that would be a huge huge huge economic cost. Otherwise, according this last response, testing is useless anyway, unless the child is being targeted by the state. Honestly, though, if the state wants to make a case that a child should be killed, shouldn't they pay the cost of testing? If they killed the child without testing, they would face aftermath that would be inefficient as well.

  2. #152
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    Okay, well now it seems you're changing your original argument. You said before that unauthorized killing would be akin to vandalizing a car.
    The car analogy was merely to point out that the child is property. However, additional procedures are necessary because such property has potential to hold higher value.

    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    Otherwise, according this last response, testing is useless anyway, unless the child is being targeted by the state. Honestly, though, if the state wants to make a case that a child should be killed, shouldn't they pay the cost of testing? If they killed the child without testing, they would face aftermath that would be inefficient as well.
    Dont get it...

    Whats the inefficiency in conducting a 5 minute test?
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  3. #153
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    You really think a 5 minute test could conclusively determine whether or not someone has some set of specific cognitive abilities? How would this test work? And how would people determine what this set of traits would be?

    Also, what if a child would pass this test on one day and fail the next? What about mute children? What about children that just don't choose to show their abilities in a certain way, even if they have them?

    You seem to think there could be some machine that would scan the brain and output "human" or "not human". Is this part of your assumption set in this argument?

  4. #154
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    You really think a 5 minute test could conclusively determine whether or not someone has some set of specific cognitive abilities? How would this test work? And how would people determine what this set of traits would be?

    Also, what if a child would pass this test on one day and fail the next? What about mute children? What about children that just don't choose to show their abilities in a certain way, even if they have them?

    You seem to think there could be some machine that would scan the brain and output "human" or "not human". Is this part of your assumption set in this argument?
    Generally there are clear-cut signs of a developing intellect that we are looking for. For example the basic ability to speak in full sentences. Or identify a physical object. Children either have it or they do not. They display either of the two on consistent basis.

    We are unlikely to incur many expanses as a result of conducting such a test because it shall be simple by nature.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  5. #155
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    What if the child is able to speak in full sentences and chooses not to during the test?

    How do you measure ability? You can only measure performance. That flaw in and of itself makes your entire theory unacceptable, because some children that you would consider human would still be considered legally unhuman.

    "Generally" is not even close to good enough when we're talking about killing.

  6. #156
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    What if the child is able to speak in full sentences and chooses not to during the test?

    How do you measure ability? You can only measure performance. That flaw in and of itself makes your entire theory unacceptable, because some children that you would consider human would still be considered legally unhuman.

    "Generally" is not even close to good enough when we're talking about killing.
    As aforementioned, children tend to display or not to display these skills consistently. Because they act out on their hunches uninhibitedly, they are out of tune with the kind of conscious thinking necessary to choose not to display such skills during the test. Because small children tend to monitor themselves little, they tend to openly express whatever is going on within them.

    We can expect not to encounter the problem you've invoked.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  7. #157
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    We can expect to encounter it zero times out of tens of millions? No way man.

  8. #158
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    We can expect to encounter it zero times out of tens of millions? No way man.
    I do not see why the highly expressive nature of children should lead us to think otherwise.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

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  9. #159
    Senior Member Hexis's Avatar
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    Ok well ive read through most of this thread and feel im ready to throw in my two cents while im online today.

    Ok first of all I do agree with BW on some levels, but at the same time for different reasons. I do feel that while an infant is in the womb that they are not considered "human" and it should be for no reason against the law/moral/ethics/reasoning of society to "dispose" of them. But after they are born they are most definitely human, there is no logical arguement against that, there human end of discussion. Now I do feel that children ( i mean about under the age of 18 months or so) who are mentally ill or disabled to the point that they are of no use to society should be "disposed" of by law immediately, but normaly you can find this out while they are still in the womb and its not morally a problem to do so then. But for no reason is a child post-birth not conisidered human and not considered to have rights. I have a son of my own and if you where to ever have children (which I doubt anyone would with you if you ever voiced your oponions on the matter) you would most definitely at some point realise the beauty that a new life brings into this world and realise how (logical or not) ridiculous your conclusions are.

    Now im not saying that disposeing of an terminally unhealthy or completely mentally disabled child is wrong, it is most definitely (imo) the best thing to do. But mostly because that is no life to live and if my son where to have been born a vegetable you can most definitely believe I would be the first one to say to "dispose" of him. But that is mostly out of my love for him and how I would hate to know he is liveing an incomplete life and that theres no way for me to even know if hes miserable or not. But at the same time he should NEVER be considerd property, and NO ONE other than me or his mother WILL have the right to decide these things for him, ever!

    On another tangent I do feel that the elderly who are mentally ill or people who have basically a negative effect on society should be "disposed" of. This includes anyone who has a dabilatateing diseases that leave them with only the most basic functions and depend on others for survival or for any other reason must depend on others to live and at the same time could be said to not have a grip of reality and cant make any decisions. So for example I feel all people who are clinicaly insane to the point that reality no longer is a factor for their thinking level should be "disposed" of, not sent to a treatment facility just to keep em alive. Kill 'em, end of discussion.

    Ok BW on another side note your are going to have to take into account that a "majority" of people (so far everyone but you) will base some decisions on emotions if not the whole of their lives. And that no matter how logical your arguements are and no matter how much sense they make, how that would no matter what be the overall best decision for everyone, your going to have to realize that we as humans are not built on logic but rather emotion and that it will never work. You might say that this is not an arguement for NFs or Feeling has no place here but then I say if it doesnt then this arguement should not even have been brought up. Cause if there is only room for cold hearted (not an insult), calculateing, logical thinkers then your arguement is already dead cause if your arguement cant grow from the input from feelers as well then whats the point. This world will always partially be ran souly by emotions and something robotic like this, no matter how logically correct, will never fly. Just like how i respect your outstanding logic and your ability to set aside your emotions for such a topic, I also demand your respect of my emotions as well as the emotions of others who are trying to have a decent debate with you. And if you fail to recognise human emotion (not only in this debate but all others) as a valid stand point for the backing of an arguement then the only thing I can say is, in the most respectful manner, fuck you BlueWing.

    Overall good thread, .
    SDMF

  10. #160
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Consider a child who's been classically conditioned not to speak. Like, say a parent beats their child every time they say anything. Are these children going to pass your test? No. Are they human? Yes.

    Sorry man, but you're way off base here, and you're talking about killing babies. You gotta come up with a better argument than that. Plus, your test is so concrete and "cognitive ability" is such a complex matter -- it sounds like you're struggling to rationalize your stance now instead of just giving up. If you want to convince people, make a more full argument and the way this view would be implemented.

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