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  1. #21
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix13 View Post
    I cant make this short and simple, but Ill try to explain:

    I found the entire argument based on a world made up of reflective people. Yes, people are able to reflect and deliberate (thats what makes us human), BUT I dont think people do it on default. Often when people face dilemmas, they act out of instinct, not thought. .
    Such actions are a result of their thoughts or lack thereof. If they act on instinct it means that their worldview does not include a maxim which ought to prevent them from acting out on instinct. Or perhaps they have a maxim that it is okay to act out on instincts, and regard such a principle as a truism. For this reason, they think they need not even think things through when they wish to act on instinct, they just go for it.

    With that said the principle of human psychology I've established still holds. Their irrational behavior (in this case as you mention, actions that are inspired by impulses) are a result of an irrational worldview which has resulted from unsound communication between them and their instructors and likely their unsound analysis of the instructions which has likely inscribed undesirable maxims into their belief systems. Such ethical principles have likely been so thoroughly imbued in their psyche that they appear second nature to them and thus manifest in the form of impulses.

    As aforementioned, another way this phenomenon could be observed is also due to irrational thinking, or some kind of flaws in reasoning. That is lacking sound maxims which ought to prevent one from acting out on impulses. A rational thinker would carefully analyze the situation and establish the sound maxims.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  2. #22
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    I am befuddled about how you can make so many statements of absolute fact from your observations, BlueWing.

    How can you rationally have no self doubt? Seems to tread on dangerous ground to me.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  3. #23
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    I am befuddled about how you can make so many statements of absolute fact from your observations, BlueWing.

    How can you rationally have no self doubt? Seems to tread on dangerous ground to me.
    This is how deductive logic works. Something either is or is not, no room for moosh. Premises or the reasoning process however are fallible and may be altered at any time, should it be shown that they contain an error.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

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  4. #24
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    No such beast. (But then there could possibly be.)
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  5. #25
    ThatGirl
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    I didn't read the whole thread.

    Bluewing how do you gauge rationality and efficient solution? How do you decide what is or is not self affirmation?


    In short factual sentenses please

  6. #26
    ThatGirl
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    I am befuddled about how you can make so many statements of absolute fact from your observations, BlueWing.

    How can you rationally have no self doubt? Seems to tread on dangerous ground to me.
    It is in the wording

  7. #27
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    I didn't read the whole thread.

    Bluewing how do you gauge rationality and efficient solution? How do you decide what is or is not self affirmation?


    1)Some propositions are arguments other are not. Thus if one is to attempt to persuade us, he must make an argument, otherwise his point is unclear.
    2)Arguments must be logically consistent
    3)Premises must be based on observable phenomena

    This is what constitutes a sound or you could say rational argument, that is a fundamental fact of elementary logic.

    What is self affirmation? Any positive statement with regard to our well being. Nothing wrong with this as long as we rely on our own thinking to acquire this rather than the instructions of others.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  8. #28
    almost half a doctor phoenix13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Such actions are a result of their thoughts or lack thereof. If they act on instinct it means that their worldview does not include a maxim which ought to prevent them from acting out on instinct. Or perhaps they have a maxim that it is okay to act out on instincts, and regard such a principle as a truism. For this reason, they think they need not even think things through when they wish to act on instinct, they just go for it.

    With that said the principle of human psychology I've established still holds. Their irrational behavior (in this case as you mention, actions that are inspired by impulses) are a result of an irrational worldview which has resulted from unsound communication between them and their instructors and likely their unsound analysis of the instructions which has likely inscribed undesirable maxims into their belief systems. Such ethical principles have likely been so thoroughly imbued in their psyche that they appear second nature to them and thus manifest in the form of impulses.
    As aforementioned, another way this phenomenon could be observed is also due to irrational thinking, or some kind of flaws in reasoning. That is lacking sound maxims which ought to prevent one from acting out on impulses. A rational thinker would carefully analyze the situation and establish the sound maxims.
    Interesting. So you believe the impulses must go through the psyche before being expressed... that the impulse is only expressed if the psyche has left a hole through which it can slip through ("maxim that it is okay to act out on instincts"). I can't disprove that.
    My question to you is do you think non-human animals hold maxims? If this rational psyche is unique to humans as a latter evoutionary adaption, I'd think it would not be necessary for action.

  9. #29
    ThatGirl
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    So all of your observations are based as an argument to persuade?

    Is the OP an argument?

    Are you looking for self affirmation or learning? Or neither in which case what is your motivation?

  10. #30
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix13 View Post
    Interesting. So you believe the impulses must go through the psyche before being expressed... that the impulse is only expressed if the psyche has left a hole through which it can slip through ("maxim that it is okay to act out on instincts"). I can't disprove that.
    My question to you is do you think non-human animals hold maxims? If this rational psyche is unique to humans as a latter evoutionary adaption, I'd think it would not be necessary for action.

    No, non-human animals do not consciously hold maxims. However, their mindset could be described in terms of ethical maxims, primarily lack thereof.

    The most animal like human would be the one who is coarse and unreflective. Who simply acts on whim. This without a doubt is a reflection of his ethic. In this respect animals do have 'maxims'.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    So all of your observations are based as an argument to persuade?

    Is the OP an argument?

    Are you looking for self affirmation or learning? Or neither in which case what is your motivation?
    Learning. The term persuade was used figuratively, as a notion to distinguish between a good and a bad argument. It goes like this. A good argument is one that is sound. When you want to make a point like this, you suggest that they should only believe what is sound to give the listener an idea of what 'sound' means. From the standpoint of pure logic it does not matter what anyone believes, it only matters whether the argument in itself is sound or not.

    The OP is an argument yes because it contains clear-cut premises and a clear-cut conclusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix13 View Post
    Interesting. So you believe the impulses must go through the psyche before being expressed... ?
    It is manifest to me that our behaviors are a manifestation of our internal mindset. The only alternative to this that one could envisage is if our behavior is not inspired by our minds (which inhere within us) but somehow are controlled by an external entity. Not even that works. As even in the case of robots the external signals are filtered through the system which inheres within the robot. So...I dont get it again...
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

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