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  1. #11
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    I was wondering if the OP thought that trying to make one's self feel good about themselves through their relationships with others was a negative thing. i understand better what you are saying from your last post, BlueWing.

    I'd go so far as to say that "the arduous process of earning the approval of others" not only is arduous but an empty exercise in fluffing one's own ego and will result in the "imposter syndrome."

    It goes like this, "Hah. I've got everybody fooled into thinking I'm a good, smart, whatever person. Why do I still feel so empty and unhappy?"

    You can use your relationships with others as self-reinforcement. Though when you are completetely dependent on that for self-affirmation you have the problem I have described in the OP.

    Bottom line is, it is okay to have this as the source of affirmation, only if it is not the primary source however.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  2. #12
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Yes, I get this and agree.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  3. #13
    almost half a doctor phoenix13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    1)Rational thinking can prevent us from acting out on most important animalistic urges.

    2)Extroversion, Feeling and Sensation are the typological faculties most closely associated with relying on the external agenda for self-assessment. Extroversion by definition defines itself by the external environment. Feeling cannot be at peace with itself without being at harmony with others. And Sensation goes by what can be observed in the world of the senses and concrete occurences.
    Re:1) You haven't addressed my concern. Most people do not deliberate to the degree that you're suggesting. Furthermore, these "animalistic urges" significantly contribute to the confusion described in your original post, and your omission of them affects the credibility of your argument.

  4. #14
    Sniffles
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    Hmmmn.....interesting discussion. Hopefully I'll be able to contribute in the near future.

  5. #15
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix13 View Post
    Re:1) You haven't addressed my concern. Most people do not deliberate to the degree that you're suggesting. Furthermore, these "animalistic urges" significantly contribute to the confusion described in your original post, and your omission of them affects the credibility of your argument.

    Re:2) This is not a personal attack, however it's impossible not to comine:
    a. the fact that you lack E,F,and S with
    b. your dismissal of "animalistic urges" under the premise of rationality (which you do not lack)

    to corroborate the fact that your argument is flawed for lack of the very thing that you argue make the human condition so tragic: an inability to be informed by others.

    ???????????????

    All I can say..
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  6. #16
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix13 View Post
    Re:1) You haven't addressed my concern. Most people do not deliberate to the degree that you're suggesting. Furthermore, these "animalistic urges" significantly contribute to the confusion described in your original post, and your omission of them affects the credibility of your argument.

    Re:2) This is not a personal attack, however it's impossible not to comine:
    a. the fact that you lack E,F,and S with
    b. your dismissal of "animalistic urges" under the premise of rationality (which you do not lack)

    to corroborate the fact that your argument is flawed for lack of the very thing that you argue make the human condition so tragic: an inability to be informed by others.
    Yeah what are you talking about? That really made no sense.

    In debate, either list a premise that you disagree with and why, or point out an incorrect logical step.

  7. #17
    almost half a doctor phoenix13's Avatar
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    I cant make this short and simple, but Ill try to explain:

    I found the entire argument based on a world made up of reflective people. Yes, people are able to reflect and deliberate (thats what makes us human), BUT I dont think people do it on default. Often when people face dilemmas, they act out of instinct, not thought.

    You wrote:
    People behave irrationally for these two reasons. The original message was likely irrational and the confusion that has followed as a result of unsound communication has likely rendered the message even more irrational.
    To which I say, yes AND there are those little things called lust, anger, jealousy, etc. (again, the animalistic urges) that are responsible for far more irrational behavior than poor communication or confused self-image. I dont find that to be a trivial point.
    Your assertion that Rational thinking can prevent us from acting out on most important animalistic urges, made me seriously question what human race you were refering to. Do you know why innercity murder rates are so high? I'll make that rhetorical so I don't have to type it out. I will, however, if you ask me to.

    Now for the second part.:
    After typing out an explanation, I realized that it involved way too many loose associations to be credible. So, I'll delete it. If you actually care to read the mush I wrote, let me know and I'll post it.

  8. #18
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix13 View Post
    I cant make this short and simple, but Ill try to explain:

    I found the entire argument based on a world made up of reflective people. Yes, people are able to reflect and deliberate (thats what makes us human), BUT I dont think people do it on default. Often when people face dilemmas, they act out of instinct, not thought.
    Right. His argument is that thinking things through for yourself is the best thing to do.

  9. #19
    almost half a doctor phoenix13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    Right. His argument is that thinking things through for yourself is the best thing to do.
    Yes. From what I understood, his argument was that being solely informed by others is detrimental (causing misunderstanding, confusion, and irrational behavior). The remedy is thinking for yourself (like you said). This I agree with.

    My issue is that I don't find this to be "the human condition," or in any way the standard case. IOW, most people don't go about pondering who they are, whether they're in "good condition," etc. It's not the major cause of irrational behavior.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Don't you all think that it's a balance between the two?
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

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