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Why I do not believe in God

Take Five

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Ancient Hebrews were in fact believers in many gods, though not polytheistic. They believed in many gods but worshiped only one, YHWH or God as we know it. The concept of a god in ancient times contrasts our interpretation of gods today. They believed the gods interacted with one another on a cosmic level, and thereby directly influenced human events like battles.
 

Totenkindly

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I'm going home, but I'll spare an admittedly frivolous comment or two for right now.

1. I'm assuming you meant "lose."

Impressive. First criticism in a list of corrections from a new member, and you had the panache to pick on someone's spelling. :)

8. The point in my entering the discussion at all was to indicate that you, who claim not to believe in God or gods, are coming dangerously close to believing in logic/human reasoning as your deity.

Definitely a new member.
This is actually oooooooold news.
 

Take Five

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*groan*
Please, not again.

Note again that Pascal wasn't even looking at it necessarily from a utilitarian perspective but simply as a reality involved in the faith journey... because knowledge is imperfect.

He wasn't wielding it as a method of proselytizing or convincing others to believe the way he did.



That makes sense as a means of approaching the issue. But as you say, the "Christian" definition of God might be too amorphous. I'm not even sure what my own personal minimum set of properties is right now, honestly, although perhaps it would be worth formulating it.

I'm not proselytizing, I'm prying. I've not revealed my own beliefs. You are right though, knowledge is imperfect, whether on a faith journey or otherwise.

The word was spelled incorrectly twice and look at my type. Why are you at all surprised?
 

reason

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Ancient Hebrews were in fact hedonistic, though not polytheistic. They believed in many gods but worshiped only one, YHWH or God as we know it. The concept of a god in ancient times contrasts our interpretation of gods today. They believed the gods interacted with one another on a cosmic level, and thereby directly influenced human events like battles.
The word 'polytheism' typically refers to the belief in many Gods, not the worship of many Gods. That is what I meant by the term, and therefore, by your own description of their beliefs, was correct.

In any case, that the ancient theories of God differ from the present day is my point. Much of what God does in The Bible, or what was attributed to Him (such as intentions, jealousy, anger, etc), may be the misinterpretations of the people who wrote it. For the ancients, Gods were generally cruel, capricious, jealous, and indifferent to human happiness or suffering. The cultural soup from which the Hebrews arose was permeated by these assumptions, and it would not be surprising to find the Hebrews interpreting the actions of their own God through those lenses. This manifests itself in passages where God is described as petty or wrathful, when really God was never like that and had no such feelings.

Surely everyone here has had their actions misinterpreted before, leading to mistaken accusations of intent, purpose or attitude.
 

SolitaryWalker

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Now that's service.

But I already see problems with your very first paragraph. ("God is a person who...") Haven't you ever heard of Open Theology yet?

My view is that such a theology is incompatible with the explicit texts of the Bible. As Lee pointed out what is actually written is contradictory.



People should and have tried. Many times they succeeded, many times they failed. But who's to say that "sound" or "perfect" reasoning is limited to the group of people and ideas that have succeeded in finding truth. How do you know human logic can lead to truth, or that it always does? Don't put all your eggs in one basket.



1. I'm assuming you meant "lose.":doh:
2. Upon acquiring a little knowledge on the subject, you will discover that "God of Christianity" is in fact the same "God" of the Jews and of the Muslims. Furthermore, as per some relatively recent Christian discussion, the spirituality of Buddhism often is related to the spirituality of Christians (at least in the arena of Catholicism).
3. The First Commandment in your "Christian book of dogma" is indeed highly likely to be found in the Torah unless it is missing due to some typo, as the "Christian book of dogma" actually includes the first five books of the Torah, called the Pentateuch.
4. Islam, Judaism, and Christianity would be better understood as having separate interpretations of God rather than separate Gods. One could even argue that Buddhist morality is connected to these three also.
5. Pascal's Wager is on the table because your thread was about, and indeed named with "God" in mind only, not the gods of any polytheists, current or ancient. It was brought up because it concerns not the question of whether to live by specifically Christian standards in this context but the question of why it is a safer bet to believe in God, which applies to numerous religions and creeds. I simply assumed foolishly that you would be more knowledgeable about the common ground between Christianity, Judaism, and Islam (i.e. God) since you obviously researched the thought behind God and against God and, what's more, cared about it enough to type a rather long winded discussion topic about God. I apologize for the misunderstanding.
7. There are reasons to believe in God, and perhaps reasons to believe in gods. There have been plenty of philosophers in favor of God after all.
6. The point in my entering the discussion at all was to indicate that you, who claim not to believe in God or gods, are coming dangerously close to believing in logic/human reasoning as your deity.

Islam, Christianity and Judaism have different requirements one must meet in order to go to heaven, despite that they have in mind a similar god.

The problem with the worship of sacred texts is that doing so is ordered to the believer without a clear rationale to support such a view. However, I do not worship logic in the regard that they worship their gods, though I do hold it in high regard. Unlike them, I can provide reasons for holding logic in a high regard, yet they cannot provide reasons for holding their god in the high regard that they do.

Because I have clear-cut reasons for placing a high value on logic, I am in control of my inquiry. Logic is an instrument that helps me see how I will go about solving problems in life and make important decisions. Logic in itself could also be questioned, for whatever strange reason I may find that it is not desirable, I am free to renounce it. This is not nearly as dangerous as being ruled by religious maxims that one does not understand nor has the right of abandoning. The main difference between the two approaches is that one grants you the maximum possible autonomy of thought and the other limits your autonomy significantly.

Bluewing,

The problem of how to interpret The Bible is one which fascinates me, and there are many competing theories. One theory is that The Bible is a textbook (or how-to manual) sent from God. This seems to be the dominant theory, with a literal interpretation. This theory, however, cannot be true, since The Bible contradicts itself more than once, even on such concrete matters as how many people were in a particular place and time. Whatever it is, The Bible is not inerrent, and God does not write a textbook with mistakes in it. Therefore, the textbook (or how-to manual) theory is incorrect.

It seems to me that The Bible was written by people, and even with divine inspiration people are fallible. It also strikes me as important when The Bible was written, particularly the Old Testament. For one thing, as recently noted in another thread, the first books of the Old Testament are implicitly polytheistic. One God was to be worshipped above every other, which seems to imply that other Gods exist and they can be worshipped. The book of Exodus (I think) even claims that the God of the Hebrews is powerful enough to overcome the Egyptian Gods, another suggestion of polytheism.

Why would this be? I do not think that this causes any difficulties when we presume that people wrote The Bible, and would therefore write into it errors--including their own mistaken interpretation of what was occurring. For example, perhaps the Gods of the Egyptians did not exist, but only the God of the Hebrews. The writer, however, whose theories and expectations of the universe were shaped by the time and place where he lived, may have believed that the Egyptian Gods existed. Therefore, what we read is his mistaken interpretation of the facts, not the actual events which unfolded. Much of the same kind of reasoning may account for the difference between the God of the Old Testament and the New.

Although I do not actually believe any of them, these ideas interest me, and tend to encourage in me more tolerence toward those who believe, what on the surface, often seems quite silly to me.


Agreed. Interesting discoveries do indeed emerge when we study the psychology of the authors of the Bible and the sociological context they inhered in.

Indeed the first theory you mentioned is implausible, though it appears to be the case that most authors wished to lead us to believe in such a theory. As most essays written in that book seem to adhere to such a perspective. If we were to accept what is written uncritically, we would arrive at such a belief. For this reason, as you mentioned, most Christians subscribe to this theory.

It is only upon our critical examination of what has been written we realize that such a theory is false. Yet, again, as aforementioned, if we wish to have an interesting inquiry into the subject, this is the practice we ought to engage in. Indeed such an outlook on the subject does make Christian theology appear complicated whilst outside of such a perspective manifestly silly. This view seems to explain well why many thinkers of supreme intellect earnestly believed in Christianity, as well as it does give the non-believer reasons to be more patient with the believer.

My view however is, genuine inquiry into philosophy of Religion will allow one to 'break the spell' as Daniel Dennet says. The complexity of this religion is only illusory and a result of a confused view of what is written in the Bible. One is only to realize this in order to liberate us from such pernicious superstition.

However, the practice you suggest (attempting to review the psychological and sociological background of the Bible) does open the door for many interesting philosophical discussions. Though we must take good care not to confuse this for an attempt to properly interpret the writings in the Bible. We should simply take them for face value as much as the written text allows us.

Seems to be that at this point we have come back to the problem of whether or not commiting the Iron Man fallacy is a good idea. I argued that it is not a good idea because it leads us to a confused perspective of what the initial author stated and may lead to confusions in our worldview. (Much like how one could misunderstand the crude and incoherent message of the writers of the Bible and mistake their ideas for a plausible worldview. This has often led them to adhere to many religious dogmas which has imposed sanctions on their thought and in effect has stultified their intellectual progress.)
I can attest to this on a deeply personal level.
 

Take Five

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Biblical scholars distinguish between polytheists, those who worship more than one of their own gods, and the Hebrews, who believed in th gods of other states, but worshiped their one God. Their interpretation of God hinges on this view and on the view that they believed the gods interacted with each other in the cosmic realm. They believed that God was all powerful, implying that God is more powerful than other gods. So from the Hebrew perspective, losing a battle against another state (states often had their own gods), or suffering famine was due to their falling out of God's favor. In Genesis, Abraham made a covenant with God, in which God is supposed to give Abraham's descendants (the Hebrews/Jews) land, descendants, etc. In return, Abraham's people need to worship only God as well as abide by some other laws. So if the Jews ever suffered as a whole people, it was normally explained by supposing they were breaking the covenant. At times, God was envisioned as wrathful, but the overarching theme which distinguished the Jewish God from other gods was actually the quality of love, as they believed God loved his people. God could beat the other gods in the cosmic realm, but would allow suffering to the Jews if they broke their end of the covenant.
 

Take Five

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You're still seeing thought as a whole as your deity. Yes thought allows you to choose what you do, but your regard for logic influences you to choose what is logical. Note that you can still choose what is illogical, there are no restrictions, but logic is the superior and right way. Believing in God is much the same thing. You choose what you believe, but you have the option of deviating even though you consider your beliefs to be the "right way." Believing does not restrict what you can do. And there are reasons to believe as I have said before since many philosophers were in favor of God. And the requirements of the different religions was not the issue, God is, because your topic was about the existence or nonexistence of God, not the right or wrong of various religions.
 

reason

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This is how I understand the terms,

Monotheism: the belief that one, and only one, God exists
Polytheism: the belief that more than one God exists​

Whereas,

Monolatry: the belief that more than one God exists, but only one is worthy of worship​

The Hebrews's beliefs evolved from polytheism to monolatrism to monotheism. But whatever, they're just words.
 

Take Five

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This is how I understand the terms,

Monotheism: the belief that one, and only one, God exists
Polytheism: the belief that more than one God exists​

Whereas,

Monolatry: the belief that more than one God exists, but only one is worthy of worship​

The Hebrews's beliefs evolved from polytheism to monolatrism to monotheism. But whatever, they're just words.

Yes, I think we're on the same page about that now.
 

Eric B

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I've heard that worship of one only is called "henotheism". Both mono and heno mean "one", but "heno" is less exclusive.

Other points,

One argument is that if the universe were infinite, it would have infinite mass and infinite density, which would make it technically a singularity.

Also, in theoretical physics, "the universe" is often used to refer to multidimensional spacetime continuums. Since from higher dimensions, they appear like flat membranes (like a 2D sheet in our universe), they are called "branes". "Multiverse" or "superspace" is the higher dimensional hyperspace these "universes" are all embedded in. So there can be existence outside of our "universe", even though it would be quite a different kind of existence. (Different numbers of dimensions, different natural laws, etc).

Even beyond this dimensional multiverse, there can be a realm not even defined by space and time.

What are Space and Time, Really, and Can We Do Without them?

(From The Elegant Universe, Brian Greene, Vintage Books, p.376-78)

...we have freely made use of the concepts of space and of spacetime...envisioning the fabric of space and space-time as if it were somewhat like a piece of material out of which the universe is tailored. These images have considerable explanatory power; they are used regularly by physicists as a visual guide in their own technical work. Although [this] gives us a gradual impression of meaning, one can still be left asking, What do we really mean by the fabric of the universe?

This is a profound question that has, in one form or another, been the subject of debate for hundreds of years. Newton declared space and time to be eternal and immutable ingredients in the makeup of the cosmos, pristine structures lying beyond the bound of question and explanation. Leibniz and others disagreed, claiming that space and time are merely bookkeeping devices for conveniently summarizing relationships between objects and events within the universe. The location of an object in space and in time has meaning only in comparison with another. Space and time are the vocabulary of these relationships, but nothing more. Although Newton's view held sway for more than 200 years, Leibniz's conception, further developed by Austrian physicist Ernst Mach, is closer to our current picture. As we have seen, Einstein's special and general theory of relativity firmly did away with the concept of an absolute and universal notion of space and time. But we can still ask whether the geometrical model of space-time that plays such a pivotal role in general relativity and in string theory is simply a convenient shorthand for the spatial and temporal relations between various locations, or whether we should view ourselves as truly imbedded in something when we refer to our immersion within the space-time fabric.

Although we are heading into speculative territory, string theory does suggest an answer to this question. The graviton, the smallest bundle of gravitational force, is one particular pattern of string vibration. And just as an electromagnetic field such as visible light is composed of an enormous number of photons, a gravitational field is composed of an enormous number of gravitons—that is, an enormous number of strings executing the graviton vibrational pattern. Gravitational fields, in turn, are encoded in the warping of the space time fabric, and hence we are led to identify the fabric of space-time itself with a colossal number of strings all undergoing the same, orderly, graviton pattern of vibration. In the language of the field, such an enormous, organized array of similarly vibrating strings is know as a coherent state of strings. It's a rather poetic image—the strings of string theory as the threads of the space-time fabric—but we should note that its rigorous meaning has yet to be worked out completely.

Nevertheless, describing the space-time fabric in this string-stitched form does lead us to contemplate the following question. An ordinary piece of fabric is the end product of someone having carefully woven together individual threads, the raw material of common textiles.
Similarly, we can ask ourselves whether there is a raw precursor to the fabric of space-time; a configuration of strings of the cosmic fabric in which they have not yet coalesced into the organized form that we recognize as space-time. Notice that it is somewhat inaccurate to picture this state as a jumbled mass of individual vibrating strings that have yet to stitch themselves together into an ordered whole because, in our usual way of thinking, this presupposes a notion of both space and time; the space in which a string vibrates, and the progression of time —that allows us to follow its change in shape from one moment to the next. But in this raw state, before the strings that make up the cosmic fabric engage in the orderly, coherent vibrational dance we are discussing, there is no realization of space or time. Even our language is too coarse to handle these ideas, for, in fact, there is even no notion of before. In a sense, it's as if individual strings are "shards" of space and time, and only when they appropriately undergo sympathetic vibrations do the conventional notions of space and time emerge.

Imagining such a structureless, primal state of existence, one in which there is no notion of space or time as we know it, pushes most people's comprehension to their limit (it certainly pushes mine).
The hope is that from this blank slate starting point—possibly in an era that existed before the big bang or the pre-big bang (if we can use such temporal terms, for lack of any other linguistic framework)—the theory will describe a universe that evolves to a form in which a background of coherent string vibrations emerges, yielding the conventional notions of space and time. Such a framework, if realized, would show that space, time, and by association, dimension, are not essential defining elements of the universe. Rather they are convenient notions that emerge from a more basic, atavistic, and primary state. ...whereas strings show us that conventional notions of space and time cease to have relevance below the Planck scale [10^-35 m], studies show that ordinary geometry is replaced by something known as non-commutative geometry. [such as matrices, as opposed to normal Cartesian coordinates]. In this geometrical framework, the conventional notions of space and of distance melt away, leaving us in a vastly different conceptual landscape.
Nevertheless, as we focus our attentions on scales larger than the Planck length, physicists have shown that our conventional notion of space and time does re-emerge.


I loved where this was heading, but afterward, he seemed to abandon this view, and settle on an 11D superspace where the Big Bang was created by our brane bumping into another one. (that became the "M-theory", for "Membrane". Now, you don't hear much about the "grand Unified Theory" anymore, though the particle test that was supposed to destroy the earth the other day may yield some findings that spark off new interest.).

But it is obvious that that "primal realm" gives an understanding of how to think of God's realm ("not bound to the universe").
 
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Venom

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The infinte-ness of the universe is irrelevent.

Just because something is infinite doesn't mean that nothing can exist outside of it, unless that 'it' in question is defined as 'everything'. However, if the universe is defined as everything, then it hardly matters whether it is infinite or not, nothing could exist outside of it, by definition, and so nothing could have created it, God or not.

could this be a possible layman explanation: ?

You can't have a distinctly different "TV" in mind, than what is considered an infinite types of TVs. With this in mind, you can still have distinct things that aren't TVs.

So to get BlueWings argument to work: define God as everything (as you already stated). However, I think it works better if we unpack "everything" into all energy/matter etc.

1. God is infinite. What gives God this infinite power? I think saying God is infinite energy is a reasonable premise, it would allow him to create and well be infinite.
2. God is infinite in energy. therefore he is infinite in mass. Everything is observable as some form of energy. Therefore for God to exist as infinity, we must all be God.

hows that? and if we expand it to God being outside of our brane (string theory). It still works. Strings are just little packets of space/time until they reach vibrations that emulate gravity/energy. God would have to be infinite amounts of these as well...
 

SolitaryWalker

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could this be a possible layman explanation: ?

Reason's point was that infinity is not to be equated with everything. My argument in response to that was that infinity by definition means everything.

You can't have a distinctly different "TV" in mind, than what is considered an infinite types of TVs. With this in mind, you can still have distinct things that aren't TVs.

As a matter of mathematical inquiry, we shall discover that the possibilities of TVs we may construct is finite because the amount of particles inherent within the TV is finite. (There is a very detailed procedure with regard to how we can calculate the amount of possibilities that could be created with the variables we currently have)

1. God is infinite. What gives God this infinite power? I think saying God is infinite energy is a reasonable premise, it would allow him to create and well be infinite.
2. God is infinite in energy. therefore he is infinite in mass. Everything is observable as some form of energy. Therefore for God to exist as infinity, we must all be God.

hows that? and if we expand it to God being outside of our brane (string theory). It still works. Strings are just little packets of space/time until they reach vibrations that emulate gravity/energy. God would have to be infinite amounts of these as well...

These are all interesting suggestions with respect to how God is to be defined, however this is not relevant to how he is defined in the Christian scripture.
 

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These are all interesting suggestions with respect to how God is to be defined, however this is not relevant to how he is defined in the Christian scripture.

The Christians maintain that God is omnipotent. He has the ability to create unto infinity and act on the universe with infinite power. These all seem to be requirements of omnipotence. How is that possible without God having infinite energy? As I have already stated, an infinite energy source is a problem that would render us non existent unless we are in fact, God.
 

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The Christians maintain that God is omnipotent. How is that possible without God having infinite energy?

1)It is not possible to be infinite and have a personality. As personality is a property of the person which is a finite property.

2)If an entity is finite, it is part of the universe as a whole, therefore obeys the laws of nature of the universe, which is by definition not omnipotent.
 

Venom

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1)It is not possible to be infinite and have a personality. As personality is a property of the person which is a finite property.

2)If an entity is infinite, it is part of the universe as a whole, therefore obeys the laws of nature of the universe, which is by definition not omnipotent.

so we are in agreement that the idea of the BibleGod is ridiculous, :yes: ... an infinite God is not possible (due both to your point of personality being finite and my issue of e=mc^2). If he is not infinite, then he is not omnipotent and therefore not God.

I guess your post simply points out that, the out I provided of "the only way there is God is if we are God" isnt possible? I would agree now that I read your second point.
 

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:shock:

I'm a little dismayed from some of the reasoning's put forth in this thread.

There are some interesting definitions of 'infinite', and even the 'omni---", going around here. But they do not jive with the Bible's descriptions, though supposedly that is what you are basing your argument on. I would really like to see your references as to how you feel the Bible text supports your argument, since it seems to me the Bible is the real victim of the attack.

For instance, where in the Bible is the though conveyed that God is infinite as meaning he must be everything.

My view however is, genuine inquiry into philosophy of Religion will allow one to 'break the spell' as Daniel Dennet says. The complexity of this religion is only illusory and a result of a confused view of what is written in the Bible. One is only to realize this in order to liberate us from such pernicious superstition.

A confused view? Granted, I can see how someone might agree with this, but without the specific references your argument is as hollow as God is supposedly 'infinitely' everything.
 

Venom

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:shock:

I'm a little dismayed from some of the reasoning's put forth in this thread.

There are some interesting definitions of 'infinite', and even the 'omni---", going around here. But they do not jive with the Bible's descriptions, though supposedly that is what you are basing your argument on. I would really like to see your references as to how you feel the Bible text supports your argument, since it seems to me the Bible is the real victim of the attack.

For instance, where in the Bible is the though conveyed that God is infinite as meaning he must be everything.



A confused view? Granted, I can see how someone might agree with this, but without the specific references your argument is as hollow as God is supposedly 'infinitely' everything.

for BlueWings sake, its only I, that am claiming that if God is infinite he must be everything. I do not base my claim on a particular phrase or line.

I think its evident that for God to create the stars after the earth, he would need to be omnipotent :). in order to be omnipotent, he needs the ability to overcome anything. What allows anything to overcome anything? energy. He needs infinite energy because otherwise he might come upon a situation where he lacks the energy to be all powerful. So God has infinite energy. All the energy God has, is of God because otherwise it would be infinite in its own right and therefore be something "of more power" that separately exists from God. Further, it would be something that God depends on that is seperate from himself and therefore would make God not the highest thing worthy of worship. Therefore God must himself BE infinite energy. everything in our universe is a form of energy. If there is an infinite set of energy out there, how can we really be "separate" from that set if we are all energy?
 
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