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  1. #71
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    The point was that the infinity of the universe evinces the impossibility of creationism. Creationism requires that God be analogous to the universe like a robot controller to a robot. This is impossible, as in this case the robot controller is inseparable from the robot.
    Agreed.

  2. #72
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    I belch a hearty laugh at Philosophy General Wing.
    To know the universe is infinite is to experience all of that infinity.
    The only person I've ever met who could do that was God.

    That means, Bluewing is God, 'cause he knows that the universe is infinite.

    Hail!

  3. #73
    Member Ojian's Avatar
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    Infinite is used in the strictly mathematical sense. Which does mean without a beginning and without an end. It is not possible to be without a beginning and without an end and at the same time be finite. Whatever is without a beginning and without an end is all things.
    Where are you getting your definitions? Infinity in mathematics is not necessarily meaning no beginning or no end. It is often used in mathematics to only refer to something that doesn't begin OR end. And again, even in mathematics "infinite" has to be used in context. Its already been pointed out, but infinite as a line is a perfectly valid description in mathematics, yet it is only in context by 2 dimensions.

    Now philosophically speaking, infinite may have the connotation you refer to, but I bet that is not consistently used that way.

    Regardless, your "mathematical" description has no relation to the Bibles (or really any other religious scripture that I can think of) as to what God's omnipotence means.

    Having established that the universe is infinite itself, and the Bible explicitly regards God as omnipresent, he is required to be infinite.
    I dont think its been established that the Universe is infinite (but again it depends on what context you mean. "Infinite" is a contextual term, not meaning "everything"). Be careful of how you define God being omnipresent Biblically speaking, because I would bet it doesnt say what you think it does.

    If, as Jennifer pointed out, "... Reason is your foundational criteria, and any scriptural authority has to submit to it.", that is fine if you feel that way. But all I'm saying is that it's not fair to take your A definition of a term, and apply it something else's use of that term when they clearly mean B, and then judge them of that term on the basis of A. Your proposed definition of "infinity" and "omnipotence" is not the Bible's definition. Apple to Oranges.

  4. #74
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ojian View Post
    Where are you getting your definitions? Infinity in mathematics is not necessarily meaning no beginning or no end. It is often used in mathematics to only refer to something that doesn't begin OR end. And again, even in mathematics "infinite" has to be used in context..
    It is mathematically impossible to begin and not end or vice versa. There is no such figure.

    Check some mathematical dictionaries for this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ojian View Post
    Its already been pointed out, but infinite as a line is a perfectly valid description in mathematics, yet it is only in context by 2 dimensions...
    ????



    Quote Originally Posted by Ojian View Post
    Regardless, your "mathematical" description has no relation to the Bibles (or really any other religious scripture that I can think of) as to what God's omnipotence means....
    What does omnipotence mean in the Biblical context. I assumed it means what the conventional definition maintains it to.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ojian View Post
    I dont think its been established that the Universe is infinite (but again it depends on what context you mean. "Infinite" is a contextual term, not meaning "everything").....
    Okay, suppose infinite does not mean what it means in that mathematical context. Say there is a creator? Who created the creator? We would go ad infinitum. Someone must have been self-created. But this is not possible, as nothign comes from nothing. Therefore something always existed. Its not possible to lack a beginning, yet to also have an end, therefore the universe is infinite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ojian View Post
    Be careful of how you define God being omnipresent Biblically speaking, because I would bet it doesnt say what you think it does.").....
    Than tell me what omnipresent means in the Biblical context.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ojian View Post
    If, as Jennifer pointed out, "... Reason is your foundational criteria, and any scriptural authority has to submit to it.", that is fine if you feel that way. But all I'm saying is that it's not fair to take your A definition of a term, and apply it something else's use of that term when they clearly mean B, and then judge them of that term on the basis of A..").....
    Unless clearly stated otherwise, we assume it is the most conventional definition, which is definition A.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ojian View Post
    Your proposed definition of "infinity" and "omnipotence" is not the Bible's definition. Apple to Oranges.
    What is the definition of omnipotence in the Bible, or infinity?
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  5. #75
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    About Nothing and Omnipotence.

    The idea of nothing can be difficult to define.

    An idea is defined by assigning it properties, for example, an owl is a bird, nocturnal, cold-blooded, predator, etc. and by comparing properties, owls can be distinguished from non-owls. Therefore, nothing can also be defined by assigning it properties, right? For example, one property of nothing is that it's a not-owl, but is this paradoxical? When there is nothing, then there is nothing to have properties, so how can nothing be a not-owl?

    There is a solution to this problem, and it involves no more than revising the definition to eliminate the inconsistency. Do not define nothing by its absence of properties, because nothing, not even nothing, can have a complete absence of properties. Nothing does have properties, but only those which it must have on pain of contradiction, and nothing more. Therefore, nothing can be distinguished from something, and the paradox eliminated.

    The problem with ideas like omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, or other universal-like characteristics of God, is analogous to that of discussing nothing, and solved in the same way. The old question 'can God create a rock which He cannot lift?' is a fine example, its the same kind of paradox but turned on its head--we're no longer trying to remove every property, but instead trying to assign every property. The problem is that we can always define a new property which, by definition, refuses to be assigned, and so to render the idea of omnipotence consistent, limits must be introduced, but only those limits which it must have on pain of contradiction, and nothing more.

    When this is done for all of God's characteristics, a more sensible and consistent idea of God can be defined.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  6. #76
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    Reason,

    Basically what you are saying is that: Nothing cannot be defined because it has no properties, and Everything (concept of infinite *something*) cannot be defined because you can add properties to it that don't fit it, so to make Everything be consistent there must be limits placed on the properties you can assign to it.

    How does this affect the concept of God?

    The definition of God being: the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.

    If you assign limits to God's abilities/characteristics, wouldn't those limits have to be assigned by another, higher power?

  7. #77
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didums View Post
    How does this affect the concept of God?
    In many ways, for one, as already noted, God cannot be the creator of the universe (where the term 'universe' refers to everything), because not everything could have been created.

    If you assign limits to God's abilities/characteristics, wouldn't those limits have to be assigned by another, higher power?
    In a sense, yes, because God cannot exist, by definition, unless He has these limits. That is, if God does not have these limits, then He doesn't existence, so his existence, if true, presupposes these limits.

    These limits, however, are not that important, because God can, potentially, still do most of what theists usually expect.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    These limits, however, are not that important, because God can, potentially, still do most of what theists usually expect.
    They are absolutely important imo. Some people assume the necessity of God because they believe the Universe had a beginning, and in this they misinterpret the ramifications of the Big Bang theory. Beginning does not infer Origin, especially not in the case of the Universe. Assuming that our Universe needs a creator to exist because our Universe has a point that you can call the 'beginning' presupposes a horizontal causation timeline (a grand Time background beyond our Universe's), which then infers that God has a cause. Why then the need for him? Especially if it can be shown that there need not a causation, that the Universe simply Is.

  9. #79
    Guerilla Urbanist Brendan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Axiom: The Universe is Infinite, therefore the existence of God is impossible independent of the existence of the world.
    Naturally. But I feel that physical existence is rather irrelevant to God's significance to mankind.
    There is no such thing as separation from God.

  10. #80
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didums View Post
    They are absolutely important imo. Some people assume the necessity of God because they believe the Universe had a beginning, and in this they misinterpret the ramifications of the Big Bang theory. Beginning does not infer Origin, especially not in the case of the Universe. Assuming that our Universe needs a creator to exist because our Universe has a point that you can call the 'beginning' presupposes a horizontal causation timeline (a grand Time background beyond our Universe's), which then infers that God has a cause.
    Not necessarily. See this post: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...tml#post317951
    Why then the need for him? Especially if it can be shown that there need not a causation, that the Universe simply Is.
    Then, the universe is by definition, "God". All that has been done is to make it material instead of "personal". But again, even science at one time recently, proposed a "primal realm" that does not consist of time.
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