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  1. #111
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Still don't see the relevance.
    Because you're a [delicate desert bloom].


    5 +4=9, and 5x+2y=100z

    and so on. All of our interaction with mathematical symbols are defined as 'manipulation' in this context. The same could be said with respect to all of our other interaction with ideas through symbols which are non-mathematical. Accordingly, all interaction with ideas is to be considered 'manipulation' because it is not possible to entertain ideas without symbols.
    It's not manipulation. It really isn't...

    No, no the universe did not create itself. Creating oneself is not possible, (the famous nothing comes from nothing principle). It always existed.
    Wow... that changes nothing.

    The point I was making, the one you seemed to miss, even despite your self-diagnoses as being intuitive, was that whatever you say about the boundlessness of the universe could, as justly be said about God, who could in turn create the universe, and make it finite if he so chose.

    Unfortunately m'friend, your thesis isn't conclusive.
    Last edited by Ivy; 09-22-2008 at 10:20 PM. Reason: removed insult

  2. #112
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    They are not infinitely small. We can try reducing them ad infinitum to no end, which in itself evinces the finitude of our universe. Noone has ever reached the smallest possible point, yet the smallest we have reached could be recorded in finite numbers, therefore it is not infinite.
    Of course, there is no smallest point. That is the point! A point is defined as having zero length/area/volume. So an infinite number of them can exist in the same exact place; let alone any finite length. This now gets into multiplication of zero by infinity, which is really shaky ground, but suffice it to say, if n/0 is generally seen as ?, then 0 ? = n (any finite number).

    I explain this more in detail in my essay on math
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  3. #113
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    So you can let your mind run free - free of meaning - it's like driving your car down the hill without steering or brakes - or like kneeling in Mass at the moment of Transubstantiation.

    Or its like that moment when your girlfriend tells you she is pregnant.

    In fact when your mind is running free - free of meaning - your mind is truly pregnant.

    And most of all you don't know what you will give birth to. Will it be a girl or a boy; will it be healthy or not; will it be yours or someone else's.

    This is precisely the moment of Transubstantiation where you lose yourself, for a moment, in the ineffable.

    Just as Colmena loses himself in his ineffable politeness as he waits for the world to breathe.

    In fact at the moment of Transubstantiation, the whole of Creation holds its breath.

    And rabbits wear pancakes on their heads.

  4. #114
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    ??!



    A guy sent me this graphic the other night.
    I thought I was special -- that he created this just for me.
    But apparently not.

    This is why I no longer believe in God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    Because you're a [delicate desert bloom].
    A rose by any other name...
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #115
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    Because you're a [delicate desert bloom].


    It's not manipulation. It really isn't....


    manipulation definition |Dictionary.com

    See definition 3.

    Any kind of handling is 'manipulation' under this definition. We manipulate our kitchen utencils and our automobile in the similar fashion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    Wow... that changes nothing. ....
    The point was that traditional Judeo-Christian theism regards God as separate from the universe. Because we know that this universe is infinite, it follows that it is impossible to be separate from the universe.



    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    The point I was making, the one you seemed to miss, even despite your self-diagnoses as being intuitive, was that whatever you say about the boundlessness of the universe could, ....
    There are theologies which regard God as the universe itself. However, such a definition of God is incompatible with the Judeo-Christian theology which is the subject of our present scrutiny.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    as justly be said about God, who could in turn create the universe, and make it finite if he so chose.....
    It is not possible for the universe to be created as outlined above. Obviously there was a time when our minds have managed to successfully translate the infinite realm into the finite, because the universe our minds were dealing with is infinite, God could not have been responsible for such an occurence.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  6. #116
    EvanTheClown (ETC) Clownmaster's Avatar
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    I don't believe in God because the shit mentioned in Exodus and Revelations is too cool to be real. Magic doesn't exist. Neither does God.

    Because you can't spell "Slaughter" without "Laughter"

  7. #117
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    we don't know the universe is infinite, or even if this is the only "universe"

  8. #118
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    manipulation definition |Dictionary.com

    See definition 3.

    Any kind of handling is 'manipulation' under this definition. We manipulate our kitchen utencils and our automobile in the similar fashion.
    LOL! OMG! I MAY AS WELL POST IN ALL CAPS AND END EVERY SENTENCE WITH EXCLAMATION MARKS BECAUSE I KNOW YOU'RE NOT GOING TO NOTICE! I KNOW BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT READING MY POSTS!

    Dude... I know what manipulation means. Do you know what math involves? Obviously not. You've fooled yourself. An INTP ought to be willing to alter his course once he's been shown evidence contrary of his findings.

    But I suppose I was right in the first place... you haven't been reading my posts, ergo you missed the evidence.

    Next time, do what I do. Check the definitions of your own shit and make sure you didn't fuck up, and check your opponents sources.

    Stop quoting definitions to me. I assure you, I'm thoroughly versed in vocabulary.



    It's NOT manipulation. You're manipulating squiggles on a page, not values or quantities.

    Jennifer said it right -- "a rose by any other name..."

    We call it something different, doesn't mean that it is different. You said it yourself in all those Feelers-are-idiots threads you preened yourself with.

    The point was that traditional Judeo-Christian theism regards God as separate from the universe. Because we know that this universe is infinite, it follows that it is impossible to be separate from the universe.



    There are theologies which regard God as the universe itself. However, such a definition of God is incompatible with the Judeo-Christian theology which is the subject of our present scrutiny.



    It is not possible for the universe to be created as outlined above. Obviously there was a time when our minds have managed to successfully translate the infinite realm into the finite, because the universe our minds were dealing with is infinite, God could not have been responsible for such an occurence.
    I agree that the Judeo-Christian god has to fit an impossible bill, but I don't say so because he couldn't have created the universe. In fact, he could have, if he always existed rather than the universe always having been so.

    You don't know that the universe is infinite, because you can't know the universe is infinite, because you can't know that an everpresent God didn't build it himself. Perhaps God exists only in the dimension of Time, and got bored with just the one, and later created spatial ones, and filled it with stuff what we call the universe today.

    If the universe doesn't have to be created, then God doesn't have to be created.


    If you could just get past your ridiculous, insipid, self-importance and recognize that the world is not created by your perceptions, and therefore does not bend to the whim as you want to see it. You are awarded the illusion of consciousness by the myriad of synaptic events manifest in intellectualizing, which can fail, given the poor reliability of those synapses. You really need to give yourself a once over. Not soul-searching, I'm suggesting you learn just a hint about neurophysics.

    I say this with utmost sincerity, because you appear not to be joking, and have instead gone off the deep end with these self important and subsequently narrow and simultaneously unsubstantiated proofs.

    Put simply, get over yourself. You're only smarter than most people. Not the whole universe.

    Additionally, you routinely show such staunch failure to cooperate in exposing yourself to the ins and outs of a system that whatever internal consistency -- I know how much you love that -- you've developed, which you've unwittingly deluded yourself into believing stands parallel to the truth, and have attempted to circumvent the truth of universe with, will continue to put you at the risk of being blindsided with falsehood and utter failure to efficiently communicate.

    As a matter of fact, I'd bet that the social resistance you deliberately bring upon yourself is what pushed you to conjure the notion that you could outsmart the cosmos, but unfortunately for you and your books, you will die, they will burn, and it will be the cosmos who did it to you both, unmoved by your efforts to understand its wrath.

  9. #119
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    we don't know the universe is infinite, or even if this is the only "universe"
    Er... if this isn't the only one, then whatever contains this, and the other one would be called the universe.

    The definition of universe is defined at a subject, not a specific object. Whatever object matches that template stakes claim on the word, so frankly, yes we do know that this is the only universe.

    On the other hand, it is a rather useless term, because we don't know all the implications of its use. So in some odd way you're right.

  10. #120
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
    LOL! OMG! I MAY AS WELL POST IN ALL CAPS AND END EVERY SENTENCE WITH EXCLAMATION MARKS BECAUSE I KNOW YOU'RE NOT GOING TO NOTICE! I KNOW BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT READING MY POSTS!

    Dude... I know what manipulation means. Do you know what math involves? Obviously not. You've fooled yourself. An INTP ought to be willing to alter his course once he's been shown evidence contrary of his findings.

    But I suppose I was right in the first place... you haven't been reading my posts, ergo you missed the evidence.

    Next time, do what I do. Check the definitions of your own shit and make sure you didn't fuck up, and check your opponents sources.

    Stop quoting definitions to me. I assure you, I'm thoroughly versed in vocabulary.



    It's NOT manipulation. You're manipulating squiggles on a page, not values or quantities.

    Jennifer said it right -- "a rose by any other name..."

    We call it something different, doesn't mean that it is different. You said it yourself in all those Feelers-are-idiots threads you preened yourself with.



    I agree that the Judeo-Christian god has to fit an impossible bill, but I don't say so because he couldn't have created the universe. In fact, he could have, if he always existed rather than the universe always having been so.

    You don't know that the universe is infinite, because you can't know the universe is infinite, because you can't know that an everpresent God didn't build it himself. Perhaps God exists only in the dimension of Time, and got bored with just the one, and later created spatial ones, and filled it with stuff what we call the universe today.

    If the universe doesn't have to be created, then God doesn't have to be created.


    If you could just get past your ridiculous, insipid, self-importance and recognize that the world is not created by your perceptions, and therefore does not bend to the whim as you want to see it. You are awarded the illusion of consciousness by the myriad of synaptic events manifest in intellectualizing, which can fail, given the poor reliability of those synapses. You really need to give yourself a once over. Not soul-searching, I'm suggesting you learn just a hint about neurophysics.

    I say this with utmost sincerity, because you appear not to be joking, and have instead gone off the deep end with these self important and subsequently narrow and simultaneously unsubstantiated proofs.

    Put simply, get over yourself. You're only smarter than most people. Not the whole universe.

    Additionally, you routinely show such staunch failure to cooperate in exposing yourself to the ins and outs of a system that whatever internal consistency -- I know how much you love that -- you've developed, which you've unwittingly deluded yourself into believing stands parallel to the truth, and have attempted to circumvent the truth of universe with, will continue to put you at the risk of being blindsided with falsehood and utter failure to efficiently communicate.

    As a matter of fact, I'd bet that the social resistance you deliberately bring upon yourself is what pushed you to conjure the notion that you could outsmart the cosmos, but unfortunately for you and your books, you will die, they will burn, and it will be the cosmos who did it to you both, unmoved by your efforts to understand its wrath.
    My dear friend!

    I humbly acquiesce. Thy honor has slayed the wicked dragon.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    Er... if this isn't the only one, then whatever contains this, and the other one would be called the universe.

    The definition of universe is defined at a subject, not a specific object. Whatever object matches that template stakes claim on the word, so frankly, yes we do know that this is the only universe.

    On the other hand, it is a rather useless term, because we don't know all the implications of its use. So in some odd way you're right.
    You need to develop your inferior Introverted Sensing in order to ensure that you do not skid over words that you have read. The working definition of infinity with respect to this thread has been posted.

    The universe must be all things or infinite, otherwise the principle of existence could not be justified.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

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