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  1. #91
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    lol i read the first post, and then thought "i bet either an INTP or an INTJ wrote this thread"...suprise suprise haha
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  2. #92
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    You overestimate what you actually know.
    God does that from time to time.

    He forgets that to be omniscient is to know all things.
    Anti-knowledge is thence impossible.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    What post #?, I've got my settings set so that there are 20 posts per page.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Then, the universe is by definition, "God". All that has been done is to make it material instead of "personal". But again, even science at one time recently, proposed a "primal realm" that does not consist of time.
    No, because it didn't necessarily 'Create' itself, creation infers that it at one point it didn't exist. And also, "primal realm" meaning an extention of time is a wild guess and unconfirmable scientifically, and also defies logic and many of our verified understandings.

    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    Didums,

    Can an omnipotent being both exist and not exist simultaneously? The limits that I mentioned are like this. If they were not limits, then God could simultaneously exist and not exist, but presumably that feat is even beyond Him.
    No it can't, but why mention it again, I understand what you are conveying but I don't see how it has any affect on whether a God can or can't exist, the same problems keep revealing themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    In other words, the very definition of "God" (Hebrew: YHWH)is "the One who IS"; hence, "I AM". Now, if you're saying that the universe (the material realm we exist in) "simply IS", then you're ascribing to it the key attribute that defines God. The only diiference between the two then, would be that God is said to be a personal being, while the universe is a material realm.
    We're talking about God as a Creator. And btw, I AM

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    The definition of space, basically, is the medium in which the relative positions of matter are measured. (As one book says, if you had a universe with no matter in it at all, distance and location would have no meaning or be undeterminable). Time can be defined as a[n imaginary] medium in which the state of or changes in matter is measured. (It can be considered imaginary because you can only be in one point at that given time; you are not really "moving through" anything).
    That is a rather outdated, philosophical view of Space and Time. Space as we experience it is the result of 3 spatial dimensions (space, spatial, duh). And what we experience as Time is the 4th dimension. It has been scientifically verified that Space and Time themselves are actually manifestations of each other and the distinction between them can be rid of when one takes the viewpoint of Imaginary Time. Spacetime is a physical entity, we are pulled by it, it is pulled on by us, we and spacetime affect each other because mass has gravity and gravity pulls on (warps) spacetime.

  4. #94
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    Yessir there is.
    On a number line we'd call it a ray.

    Still struggling with the numbers huh?
    As has been described before, we may have a symbol for an infinite figure, but we would not be able to manipulate it around just like finite numbers.

    Have you ever seen a mathematical equation where an infinite is subtracted, added, or divided?
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  5. #95
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    The others answered this point well. We are accustomed to existing in a continuum called "time", but God would be on an entirely different level of existence that would not need to be measured by time (or space).

    In other words, the very definition of "God" (Hebrew: YHWH)is "the One who IS"; hence, "I AM". Now, if you're saying that the universe (the material realm we exist in) "simply IS", then you're ascribing to it the key attribute that defines God. The only diiference between the two then, would be that God is said to be a personal being, while the universe is a material realm.

    The definition of space, basically, is the medium in which the relative positions of matter are measured. (As one book says, if you had a universe with no matter in it at all, distance and location would have no meaning or be undeterminable). Time can be defined as a[n imaginary] medium in which the state of or changes in matter is measured. (It can be considered imaginary because you can only be in one point at that given time; you are not really "moving through" anything).

    (Here are my essays where I go into all of this stuff: BDMNQR Essays)
    Eric, in your spare time please do a little research on Immanuel Kant's critique of pure reason. I recommend this encyclopedia as your general referrence and this article as your starting point.

    Kant's Account of Reason (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

    After you do this, you will have an idea of what I am talking about.

    What follows is a set of extremely difficult concepts that I will attempt to describe as succinctly as possible without sacrificing content.

    Kant argues that the world we experience is not the real world( which I say is infinite for reasons mentioned above) but our finite representation of such a world. This is not solipsism because we, as humans, have similar minds. Thus for this reason we all see the same external world.

    We translate the infinite realm or the real world into our finite world by imposing time, space, and matter. Accordingly, to say something exists outside of time, or space or matter is the same thing as saying it does not exist at all. This is the case because such things are outside of human understanding. From the standpoint of formal logic, their truth value is nill, as they are undefinable. We cannot say that there may be a God who exists in a realm that we cannot understand because by definition of such a realm we know nothing about it. To speculate that this realm may be god means to attribute a quality to it which we are not in the position to do for the aforementioned reasons.

    In conclusion, it is hopeless non-sense to talk of a God who exists in a different realm that we cannot understand because he is outside of time or space, or whatever the 'reason' may be.

    Comprende?


    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    These limits, however, are not that important, because God can, potentially, still do most of what theists usually expect.
    What do theists expect from their god.

    1)They expect that he exists.
    2)They expect that they be responded to when they converse with him in the form of prayer.
    3)They expect that their behavior is monitored by god and is rewarded or punished accordingly.
    4)They expect to be granted an eternal life either in hellfire or in heaven.

    1)Does god exist? What is god? If he is a person, he cannot exist in a different realm. Perhaps he is an impersonal entity.
    2)Can they reach him through prayer? If he is not a person, there is no reason to talk to him. However, their prayers may be answered in an indirect way. For example someone may argue that prayer makes them think and feel in a certain way where positive consequences ensue. Much like the kind of meditation the Buddhists support.
    3)One may presume that the person who has developed a positive mindset by being true to himself, which he may reach through the endeavors of the aformentioned meditations will be likely to live a happy life. A person who lacks the qualities he could have cultivated through the meditations will be less likely to be happy.
    4)We know that something exists because we have observed it in the external world. For example, I could imagine an existence of an extremely complex robot that has not been created yet and may never be created. But I could never have imagined such a thing if I have not seen a simple robot on earth. Thus, the existence of the non-physical entities are a result of the analysis of the physical world conducted by our cognitive faculties. What is not physical can not exist. Because our minds in their own right do not hold a physical property, they cannot survive the death of our bodies. Moreover, the kingdom of heaven cannot exist outside of the planet earth or on earth, nor can the kingdom of hell. I doubt I need to give the heaven and hell thing any further treatment. Nevermind that, could there be any chance of life after death in bodily form? For example, maybe the positive religious meditations will allow us to discover certain laws of nature that make our decayed bodies recollect back to their original structure? No, for two reasons. Number one, we cease interacting with those meditations after we die, and they are not stored anywhere when our body dies. Much like we cannot think or recollect things when we are alseep or in a coma.

    The theists can marginally have 3 of their expectations met.
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  6. #96
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didums View Post
    What post #?, I've got my settings set so that there are 20 posts per page.
    Post #52, on p6. (It has a really long quote, so you can't miss it). That was permalinked, so it should have taken you straight to it, but then maybe your settings change disabled that.

    No, because it didn't necessarily 'Create' itself, creation infers that it at one point it didn't exist.
    Though I have heard people describe "God as "creating Himself"; I don't use that. It's a bad expression, precisely because as you say, it would suggest that at some point He didn't exist. I know I have heard Muslims put it that way, trying to emphasize that He is Creator of "all things". (Like a variation of their shahada: "Nothing would exist if Allah did not create it"), but to actually include Him in tat causes confusion.
    And also, "primal realm" meaning an extention of time is a wild guess and unconfirmable scientifically, and also defies logic and many of our verified understandings.
    But the primal realm I'm talking about is not an "extension" of time. It's not even really "before" time". Read the long quote I made (from theoretical astrophysicist Brian Greene) about string theory and the "fabric of space". Spacetime itself might consist of strings which together produce the space and time dimensions, but on scales smaller then the size of those strings, space and time break down.
    We're talking about God as a Creator. And btw, I AM
    But in the sense used for God, "I AM" means "the self-existent One". That, you ain't!
    That is a rather outdated, philosophical view of Space and Time. Space as we experience it is the result of 3 spatial dimensions (space, spatial, duh). And what we experience as Time is the 4th dimension. It has been scientifically verified that Space and Time themselves are actually manifestations of each other and the distinction between them can be rid of when one takes the viewpoint of Imaginary Time. Spacetime is a physical entity, we are pulled by it, it is pulled on by us, we and spacetime affect each other because mass has gravity and gravity pulls on (warps) spacetime.
    What I said doesn't deny that. Again, space and time might themselves be determined by strings, with different vibrations determining matter, energy, etc. The way I phrased it was based on the concept of measurement of objects. If we're all sitting here at rest, looking at another object at rest, then we call the medium by which we measure the relative distances, "space", and the medium in which we measure the relative changes of ourselves (such as taking out a ruler and "measuring") or the object (like if it moves), "time". Now, if we begin moving near the speed of light, then, the rate of changes in objects at rest we can observe slows down, and we say time has "stopped". It's like we can only move at the speed of light in one dimension at a time. The dimension we happen to already be moving in at that speed is the one we call time. If we begin heading in one of the other dimensions towards the speed of light, then that dimensions apparent "spatial" measurment will shrink towards zero. (Would time then appear to open up as a new spatial dimension? I've never seen them mention this. The closest is when discussing similar conditions inside a black hole where the singularity becomes the "future" since that's the only direction [in space] you can then go, and time and space have thus reversed; yet they don't describe the resulting "freedom of movement in the [former] time dimension" much!)

    The whole point here is, "dimensions" are determined by measurement of objects and events relative to each other. According to this particular expression of string theory, this can only occur on the medium made up of strings. The "primal realm" is one in which the strings are "assembled" (but this again is the limitation of our space based perspective), but in the realm itself, the location of objects and events (if those can even be defined), is completely different from the familiar space and time dimension made up by the collective strings. Greene suggests a comparison to "commutative geometry".
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  7. #97
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Eric, in your spare time please do a little research on Immanuel Kant's critique of pure reason. I recommend this encyclopedia as your general referrence and this article as your starting point.

    Kant's Account of Reason (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

    After you do this, you will have an idea of what I am talking about.

    What follows is a set of extremely difficult concepts that I will attempt to describe as succinctly as possible without sacrificing content.

    Kant argues that the world we experience is not the real world( which I say is infinite for reasons mentioned above) but our finite representation of such a world. This is not solipsism because we, as humans, have similar minds. Thus for this reason we all see the same external world.

    We translate the infinite realm or the real world into our finite world by imposing time, space, and matter. Accordingly, to say something exists outside of time, or space or matter is the same thing as saying it does not exist at all. This is the case because such things are outside of human understanding. From the standpoint of formal logic, their truth value is nill, as they are undefinable. We cannot say that there may be a God who exists in a realm that we cannot understand because by definition of such a realm we know nothing about it. To speculate that this realm may be god means to attribute a quality to it which we are not in the position to do for the aforementioned reasons.

    In conclusion, it is hopeless non-sense to talk of a God who exists in a different realm that we cannot understand because he is outside of time or space, or whatever the 'reason' may be.

    Comprende?

    What do theists expect from their god.

    1)They expect that he exists.
    2)They expect that they be responded to when they converse with him in the form of prayer.
    3)They expect that their behavior is monitored by god and is rewarded or punished accordingly.
    4)They expect to be granted an eternal life either in hellfire or in heaven.

    1)Does god exist? What is god? If he is a person, he cannot exist in a different realm. Perhaps he is an impersonal entity.
    2)Can they reach him through prayer? If he is not a person, there is no reason to talk to him. However, their prayers may be answered in an indirect way. For example someone may argue that prayer makes them think and feel in a certain way where positive consequences ensue. Much like the kind of meditation the Buddhists support.
    3)One may presume that the person who has developed a positive mindset by being true to himself, which he may reach through the endeavors of the aformentioned meditations will be likely to live a happy life. A person who lacks the qualities he could have cultivated through the meditations will be less likely to be happy.
    4)We know that something exists because we have observed it in the external world. For example, I could imagine an existence of an extremely complex robot that has not been created yet and may never be created. But I could never have imagined such a thing if I have not seen a simple robot on earth. Thus, the existence of the non-physical entities are a result of the analysis of the physical world conducted by our cognitive faculties. What is not physical can not exist. Because our minds in their own right do not hold a physical property, they cannot survive the death of our bodies. Moreover, the kingdom of heaven cannot exist outside of the planet earth or on earth, nor can the kingdom of hell. I doubt I need to give the heaven and hell thing any further treatment. Nevermind that, could there be any chance of life after death in bodily form? For example, maybe the positive religious meditations will allow us to discover certain laws of nature that make our decayed bodies recollect back to their original structure? No, for two reasons. Number one, we cease interacting with those meditations after we die, and they are not stored anywhere when our body dies. Much like we cannot think or recollect things when we are alseep or in a coma.

    The theists can marginally have 3 of their expectations met.
    What you're saying assumes that the physical realm is all that exists. No, it's one kind of existence. Or, perhaps better yet, one kind of perception.
    The problem is, that it's the only one we can measure. There's that word again! So what Kant says seems to make possible sense. Many Christians will even quote a Bible verse about our lives being a "vapor", and some will even suggest God's realm as being "more real". Careful not to suggest the "this is all a dream" view of other religions, they're not saying life is imaginary, but rather putting it in perspective.

    And then the problems many have, encluding me even struggling with it, is the fact that another realm beside the phsycal cannot be measured. You basically have to "accet it on faith", and this of course has been manipulated for millennia to control the masses. All sorts of claims are made, like me being pressured to pray more by those around me. When life continues according to universal principles, either favorable or unfavorable, they are all interpreted as "answers or denials of prayer" (or with more semantics "all are answers, but either 'yes' or 'no'"). Hence, your points 2 and 3. All of this has bothered me a great deal. So if prayer is basically futile for enacting any kind of change, then it's not really for that, it's to make us grow. To make us "humble". A "sacrifice" of time, even, to some. Every reason but the basic purpose of the act. I was recently in a debate with Calvinists using this line of reasoning (since some of them belive everything is preordained anyway, especially, who goes to heaven or hell).
    And many Christians, when out of arguments, then dismiss "reason". In fact that was their primary tactic over the centuries.

    Still, the problem is our incapability of measuring anything outside of space and time.
    Not measurable does not equal "not existent". It just means it is beyonf our limitations, and we are frail, finite creatures, so it shouldn't be too hard to believe that we cannot comprehend everything. So the most the agnostic empiricist should say is that there is no physical evidence of God. And the theist should realize that he cannot convince them through either trying to copy empiricism (Creation Science), or through moral or logical arguments, or by throwing out logic altogether.

    However, when I saw scientists come up with a theory that proposed a primal realm outside of space and time, I was shocked, and took it as a perfect explanation of God's realm, evidenced by the latest science theory. Perhaps that's why they moved away from it, as other scientists slammed it as "not even wrong". (Supposed to be the ultimate dismissal; which is often leveled at "scientific" Creationism). Now, an 11D superspace has filled in for a primal realm.
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  8. #98
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    As has been described before, we may have a symbol for an infinite figure, but we would not be able to manipulate it around just like finite numbers.

    Have you ever seen a mathematical equation where an infinite is subtracted, added, or divided?
    Your J is showing.

    Dont worry I'm not just trolling today.
    It doesn't have to be in a long equation to exist.

    A mathematician might say that movement is illusory thanks to infinitely small divisions of points, and a generally accepted axiom that you can never cross an infinite number of points, yet things do happen, only proving that mathematics is fallible.

    Just because we can't write it put doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
    I suggest you get off your high horse and reexamine your understanding of math. Youve already proven to me you're a n00b at it more than once before.

  9. #99
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    Your J is showing.

    Dont worry I'm not just trolling today.
    It doesn't have to be in a long equation to exist.

    A mathematician might say that movement is illusory thanks to infinitely small divisions of points, and a generally accepted axiom that you can never cross an infinite number of points, yet things do happen, only proving that mathematics is fallible.

    Just because we can't write it put doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
    I suggest you get off your high horse and reexamine your understanding of math. Youve already proven to me you're a n00b at it more than once before.
    What on earth are you talking about? How is this relevant to anything I said?

    From the little of your post that I do understand,

    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    and a generally accepted axiom that you can never cross an infinite number of points, yet things do happen, only proving that mathematics is fallible..
    Huh...????

    Where do the infinite number of points happen in our experience? Mathematics is fallible. Okay sure thing, all of human reasoning has been proven worthless. ( I doubt the identity of mathematics and logic, this is the famous doctrine of Frege called logicism).

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  10. #100
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    What he's referring to is that since "points" are themselves infinitely small, there are an infinite number of them between any two points. If you start out with a millimeter, you can keep dividing it down to smaller and smaller units. So what he's saying is that any movement; even a millimeter, crosses an infinite number of points, which otherwise sounds like an impossible feat.
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