The Moral and the Tragic

[Mole]

There is a moral view of the universe and a tragic view.

The Americans take a moral view. This is very good for morale with the downside of calling those who don't measure up as losers.

The Ancient Greeks took the tragic view, as best expressed in their great tragic plays such as Oedipus Rex and Narcissus by Sophocles.

In the moral view there is personal responsibility, and in the tragic view they don't know what they are doing and walk blindly into tragedy. Oedipus did not know it was his Father and Mother, and Narcissus did not know the beautiful youth he was in love with was himself.

The moral view is energising and the Americans have more personal energy than any other people, while the tragic view gives great depth and ballast, with the downside of fatalism.

In the modern world, both Russia and Australia take the tragic view, while America takes the moral view.

And interestingly, both Russia and Australia have a tragic sense of humour, so our humour is deprecating; and America has a moral sense of humour, full of one liners, and so upbeat the Americans tell us they have the best sense of humour in the world, all said without a trace of irony.

And America doesn't get Russian or Australian humour, with the very best of moral intentions.

And American movies often teach a moral, while Russians do make tragic movies of great emotional depth, and Australians are yet to create a great movie industry.

 

[LovecraftianMonstrosity]

A man asked me to write to Rome on his behalf who, as most people thought, had met with misfortune; for having been before wealthy and distinguished, he had afterwards lost all and was living here. So I wrote about him in a humble style. He however on reading the letter returned it to me, with the words: "I asked for your help, not for your pity. No evil has happened unto me."

 

[Totenkindly]

Australian horror flicks are taking an upturn, and many decent actors nowadays are originating from Australia. They'll catch up to Russia in no time. Argentina and Spain also have produced some great movies. Those mindsets have been filtering into American cinema, although not quite enough yet.

 

[Dyslexxie]

Generally former Eastern bloc nations have a very tragic view on life and a cynical attitude, which translates itself well in media. Not sure if that speaks more about the character of those nations or whether it was created by their environment, but there is a level of pessimism present.

Whenever I visit my family or travel in Eastern Europe people are always quick to point out how 'positive' I am. Although I've always considered myself kind of cynical, apparently thanking someone for their help or smiling when someone looks at you is just too much. I gotta work on my resting bitch face more.

 

[Forever]

Generally former Eastern bloc nations have a very tragic view on life and a cynical attitude, which translates itself well in media. Not sure if that speaks more about the character of those nations or whether it was created by their environment, but there is a level of pessimism present.

Whenever I visit my family or travel in Eastern Europe people are always quick to point out how 'positive' I am. Although I've always considered myself kind of cynical, apparently thanking someone for their help or smiling when someone looks at you is just too much. I gotta work on my resting bitch face more.

I'd say don't worry about them. They're all haters (yay for overgeneralization!). Social Psychology lesson, people who are in bad moods don't like to be near others who are happy, faked or real.

 

[Qlip]

Man, America sounds annoying. It's a good thing I live in California.

 

[violet_crown]

Australian horror flicks are taking an upturn, and many decent actors nowadays are originating from Australia. They'll catch up to Russia in no time. Argentina and Spain also have produced some great movies. Those mindsets have been filtering into American cinema, although not quite enough yet.

Anything you can recommend? I saw Babadook, but wasn't aware that there was a larger trend.

 

[Dyslexxie]

Anything you can recommend? I saw Babadook, but wasn't aware that there was a larger trend.

Wolf Creek 1 & 2 (1 is a classic), Snowtown (based on a true story which makes it THAT much creepier, The Loved Ones, Lake Mungo, and the Uninhabited.

 

[Mole]

Australian horror flicks are taking an upturn, and many decent actors nowadays are originating from Australia. They'll catch up to Russia in no time. Argentina and Spain also have produced some great movies. Those mindsets have been filtering into American cinema, although not quite enough yet.

In 1972 we voted in our first Labor Government after twenty-three years of conservative rule. And naively the new Labor Government tried to start and fund an Australian movie industry.

The Americans slandered this democratic initiative as socialist. So we were approached by Jack Valenti, former aide to President Lyndon Johnson. And Jack Valenti was President of the Motion Picture Association of America for thirty-eight years.

Mr Valenti told us in explicit language that we couldn't have a socialist movie industry, and if we proceeded, they would crash the Australian economy.

This was no idle threat as the same threat was made in 1956 to crash the British Pound if Britain did not withdraw east of Suiz. Britain withdrew, effectively cutting the throat of the British Empire, leaving Australia cut off and undefended.

But don't you worry, said our friend Jack, you can't have your own movie industry but, gosh, you can send all your best actors and directors to America - can't offer better than that.

So look around today and see all the Australian actors and directors in America.

 

[Thalassa]

Ftr, I get Russian humor. My math professor in college said he was surprised I laughed at Uncle Vanya at fifteen just by reading it rather than watching it. So I guess his experience of American people was similar to yours. I also like a lot of British humor.

I was also raised reading the original fairy tales and the Bible, so I have never been deluded in the way some people are about human nature. It's probably why I like horror movies as an adult.

People aren't all the same - I honestly think that "the truth" is somewhere between moral and tragic, both are too extremist, it's why both political parties drive me nuts, now that I'm in my 30s.

 

[Thalassa]

In 1972 we voted in our first Labor Government after twenty-three years of conservative rule. And naively the new Labor Government tried to start and fund an Australian movie industry.

The Americans slandered this democratic initiative as socialist. So we were approached by Jack Valenti, former aide to President Lyndon Johnson. And Jack Valenti was President of the Motion Picture Association of America for thirty-eight years.

Mr Valenti told us in explicit language that we couldn't have a socialist movie industry, and if we proceeded, they would crash the Australian economy.

This was no idle threat as the same threat was made in 1956 to crash the British Pound if Britain did not withdraw east of Suiz. Britain withdrew, effectively cutting the throat of the British Empire, leaving Australia cut off and undefended.

But don't you worry, said our friend Jack, you can't have your own movie industry but, gosh, you can send all your best actors and directors to America - can't offer better than that.

So look around today and see all the Australian actors and directors in America.

Can you please refer to them as "stupid people who lean conservative" instead of Americans?

 

[Mole]

Ftr, I get Russian humor. My math professor in college said he was surprised I laughed at Uncle Vanya at fifteen just by reading it rather than watching it. So I guess his experience of American people was similar to yours. I also like a lot of British humor.

I was also raised reading the original fairy tales and the Bible, so I have never been deluded in the way some people are about human nature. It's probably why I like horror movies as an adult.

People aren't all the same - I honestly think that "the truth" is somewhere between moral and tragic, both are too extremist, it's why both political parties drive me nuts, now that I'm in my 30s.

It's true, it is likely the truth is somewhere in between. So that is why I am clearcut in my distinctions, such as the distinction between moral and tragic, so that we can draw the shades between moral and tragic.

We choose black and white so we can see the shades of grey in between.

 

[Mole]

Can you please refer to them as "stupid people who lean conservative" instead of Americans?

Perhaps if we want to persuade them to our point of view, we might refer to them as the salt of the earth, as patriots, as friends and allies, always ready to listen to reason.

Of course from your point of view, they form part of your social environment. So you are in the interesting position of not having chosen them but of living with them.

We are in the interesting position of having chosen them in 1942, right after the fall of Singapore, and in somewhat of a panic facing the Imperial Army of Japan alone.

So we made an informed choice to 'marry', so to speak, America. We married under the ANZUS Treaty (Australia, New Zealand, and the United States of America) in 1951, and the 'marriage' has held up well, with no sign of divorce.

Our 'marriage' has deepened over time and become more intimate. And we have come to understand ourselves better as we have come to understand you. So we rejoice with you and mourn with you. You might say we have the perfect long distance relationship, far enough away to enable us to move to our own rhythms, but at the same time listening to the rhythms rolling across the Pacific.

And like any good marriage each of us has someone to blame.

 

[Kheledon]

The "Five Eyes" (U.S., U.K., Canada, Australia, and New Zealand) is the greatest alliance in the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes

I am honored and enthusiastic about this colossus of an alliance--by far the most powerful alliance the world has ever seen. Our reach is global--our satellites are better, our intelligence is better, our missile-delivery systems are better, we control the internet, we control the companies that create most of the world's computers and the software that runs those computers (mostly out of San Francisco), we dominate global finance (generally speaking, out of London and New York), we have the greatest military power (collectively) that the world has ever seen, we dominate global art, music, and entertainment (mostly out of Los Angeles), we are rich, and we are relatively benevolent (as Empires go). Needless to say, English is now the world's global language. I could go on ...

Beta: Allies matter.

 

[Kas]

What does 'moral sense of humor' mean?

 

[Mole]

Beta: Allies matter.

In world of 7.1 thousand million souls, a mere 23 million have sovereignty over a whole Continent and surrounding oceans, and with unbelievable chutzpah, we claim about half of another Continent, Antarctica, and surrounding ocean.

As an act of pure genius, we have excluded mining and the military from Antarctica. And it remains a scientific national park.

And all this is only possible with the help of our allies.

 

[Stanton Moore]

Mole,

But what is the downside of the tragic view? It is not a perfect foil to the moral perspective...

 

[Zangetshumody]

https://youtu.be/3wfNl2L0Gf8?t=2731

until the 47:48 mark, pretty much sums up the integration posed by any dualism for "tragic" and "moral" viewpoints.

Also:
https://youtu.be/3wfNl2L0Gf8?t=3270
till 55:52 illustrates the political schema quite concretely.

 

[LovecraftianMonstrosity]

What does 'moral sense of humor' mean?

Actually, I get what he means. The perfect illustration of the extremes in American humor might be typified by South Park which gives you the raunchy, over-the-top, disgusting, crass, and crude side of our humor with each episode wrapped up in a nice little "moral message" about whatever.

15 Important Life Lessons We Learned From South Park

In other words, "moral humor" is often not really about morality, but about the interrelations between human beings, and how they "should" be.

 

[Mole]

In other words, "moral humor" is often not really about morality, but about the interrelations between human beings, and how they "should" be.

And tragic humour is how we are.