Spirituality Without Religion.

[morganelise48]

I would just like to hear a few thoughts from the non-theists, like myself.

This is specifically geared toward NF'S, but feel free to discuss despite that. The only reason I say that, is because there is a sense of strive towards spirituality for many NF's. Wither this is a simple intrinsic motivation, or something more, I'm unsure of.

My main thought centered around this post is the concept of balance. I'll try to be efficient in my wording, without generalizing types. I'm merely 18, so I have some maturing to do. Also, I don't know many INFJ's of course, so feedback on this thought would be nice. For myself, and my mother who is also an INFJ, I tend to notice that we think quite logically. Sense I was young, I had a great deal of common sense. As does my mom. How I react to the external world in regards to my decisions, however, CAN be completely illogical. Almost as if I can see 1,000 different possibilities to reacting, and in the moment I may freeze and act completely outside of my line of logic. Likely just an Fe thing. (This isn't an exact description of what I think happens, just my way of putting it. I have the concept in my head, but finding the right words doesn't always work out lol.)

ANYWAY, this wasn't just a rant lol. I've always been interested in spirituality, yet dissatisfied (and to put in honestly, simply don't find any sense) in religion. I've always wondered if spirituality can help us (some more than others) organize and make sense of our emotions, thus being able to apply it to our logical decisions and thought processes, in a rational way. I've always thought that emotions and logic need to be bound together, balanced if you will, in order to come to actual truth. Rather than logic being equivalent to truth.

So my questions....
What exactly, in your own words, is spirituality without religion?
What spiritual 'practices' do you find useful?
How do you personally rationalize spirituality?
......And anything else you'd like to touch on.

 

[Coriolis]

ANYWAY, this wasn't just a rant lol. I've always been interested in spirituality, yet dissatisfied (and to put in honestly, simply don't find any sense) in religion. I've always wondered if spirituality can help us (some more than others) organize and make sense of our emotions, thus being able to apply it to our logical decisions and thought processes, in a rational way. I've always thought that emotions and logic need to be bound together, balanced if you will, in order to come to actual truth. Rather than logic being equivalent to truth.

So my questions....
What exactly, in your own words, is spirituality without religion?
What spiritual 'practices' do you find useful?
How do you personally rationalize spirituality?

Spirituality is belief in and study of the spiritual world, life beyond the physical. Since we have no direct evidence of it, it is an inherently subjective realm, and our experiences of it will be highly individualized. Religion is humanity's attempt to turn that into a collective experience. On one extreme are institutions like the Roman Catholic Church, with an extensive and longstanding hierarchy and a comprehensive system of rules and doctrine. On the other extreme are the small and often transient groups of neo-Pagans. Aside of these are individuals pursuing spirituality on their own.

Many people combine the two, finding a way to pursue individual spiritual interests within the context of a group like a church or temple. If the group is too demanding and constraining, though, divergent notions of spirituality won't be tolerated, and affected individuals will either leave, or have to suppress their personal spirituality in favor of toeing the party line.

One of the most useful spiritual practices for me has been meditation. I believe that we have many of "the answers" within ourselves, and meditation helps us quiet our mind so we can allow them to emerge and be recognized. I also believe that life does have a spiritual dimension, and that through meditation we can tap into it - that sense of the divine within ourselves, or even going deep within ourselves to encounter the infinite. I also enjoy small group activity, when I am in a compatible and trustworthy group. I am a Pagan, so for me this means group circle for the various holidays throughout the year, or to mark life transitions (coming of age, marriage, birth of child), or simply when one feels the need. I have heard Paganism described as a religion of practice rather than of faith. This means everyone will see things differently, and have different beliefs on exactly who God and Goddess are, what is our place in the world, etc. but we can come together and participate in a common ritual, using common prayers, symbols, and elements, while each of us will interpret it in our own way. For me this is an ideal way to combine individual spirituality with the enjoyment of a group experience.

As for rationalizing spirituality, I don't understand what you mean by that.

I cannot say that I use spirituality or religion to make sense of emotions. Yes, both emotions and logic are important. I wouldn't say they must balance, as that would be comparing apples to oranges. Their functions are quite different. Logic is a process that can be used to reach conclusions or make decisions. Emotions are data, input to that process, as are facts, observations, values, experiences, etc. Many people turn to religion for their values, whether the 10 commandments, or the Native American idea of considering the consequences of your actions through five (or is it seven?) generations. I personally find it hard to accept values that are simply handed to me, and justified by the fact that they are in some book that has been around for generations. I am sure that I have internalized many values I grew up with, and have retained those that seem to make sense. I know I have rejected many that do not. I see my own spirituality as providing a view of how the universe is ordered. My values must thus be consistent with that, else I feel they are denying reality.

 

[tinker683]

I consider myself a spirtual person, though not really a theist by any means. I discovered Taoism (and by Taoism I mean the highly Westernized version of it) when I took up Kung Fu a few years or so ago and I find it to be the most agreeable of religious traditions I've come across. I try to incorporate many of its elements into my daily life as best I can.

So my questions....
What exactly, in your own words, is spirituality without religion?

For me, it's simply exploring the great mystery that is life minus the baggage of dogma and tradition. That isn't to say either of those things don't have value, tradition most especially, but dogma I think can be entrapping.

What spiritual 'practices' do you find useful?

I don't really have very many "practices" as it were. I go to my old Church every Sunday before my Kung Fu class as I find the act to be calming and emotionally pleasing (even if I don't really go some of the ideas). I find the combination of the two very centering. I'll try and read from the Tao De Ching or some books I have from Derek Linn on subject every now and then but mostly what I try and do is incorporate some of Lao Tzu's teachings into my own. His emphasis on softness, on being mallable and flexible, on having faith that all things are part of the Great Tao and that whatever issue or problem I may be dealing with are just steps on a greater path.

Certainly, Christianity and other such religions have very similar teachings and lessons...but I suppose Taoism presents itself in the most palatable format. Whether this makes me the supreme cherry picker or if it means God, if he/she/it exists, is merely guiding me along the path best for me (and as such my embrace of Taoism is part of the plan)...I don't know. But here I am.

How do you personally rationalize spirituality?

To me there is no need for rationalization. We are all human beings who live in a large chaotic world and there isn't anything wrong with us trying to grapple with the mysteries of our existence. Everyone finds adequate explanation in this philosophy or that religion...but I think so long as we all find a way to work together for our common good, we'll be OK.

......And anything else you'd like to touch on.

My spirituality is something that is very personal to me and not at all something I feel the need to 'witness' or anything like that. Whenever I go to church/kung fu classes on Sunday mornings I just tell my wife that I'm off to go training. She knows where I'm going and what I'm doing. She's a strong atheist and she's fine with my beliefs.

I sued to be a strong atheist myself but I've since come to the conclusion that if there is a god/goddess/something...then It is something It will decide to communicate to me in Its own time and in Its own way (assuming It isn't already) so I don't worry about it or concern myself with the question.

It's something that helps me...and that's all that's important to me.

 

[GIjade]

I consider myself to be Pantheist.

From:
Pantheism.net
What Pantheism believes

At the heart of pantheism is reverence of the universe as the ultimate focus of reverence, and for the natural earth as sacred.

Scientific Pantheism - SciPan for short - has a naturalistic approach which simply accepts and reveres the universe and nature just as they are, and promotes an ethic of respect for human and animal rights and for lifestyles that sustain rather than destroy the environment.

When scientific pantheists say WE REVERE THE UNIVERSE we are not talking about a supernatural being. We are talking about the way our senses and our emotions force us to respond to the overwhelming mystery and power that surrounds us. We are part of the universe. Our earth was created from the universe and will one day be reabsorbed into the universe. We are made of the same matter and energy as the universe. We are not in exile here: we are at home. It is only here that we will ever get the chance to see paradise face to face. If we believe our real home is not here but in a land that lies beyond death - if we believe that the numinous is found only in old books, or old buildings, or inside our head, or outside this reality - then we will see this real, vibrant, luminous world as if through a glass darkly. The universe creates us, preserves us, destroys us. It is deep and old beyond our ability to reach with our senses. It is beautiful beyond our ability to describe in words. It is complex beyond our ability to fully grasp in science. We must relate to the universe with humility, awe, reverence, celebration and the search for deeper understanding - in many of the ways that believers relate to their God, minus the grovelling worship or the expectation that there is some being out there who can answer our prayers.

This overwhelming presence is everywhere inside you and outside you and you can never be separated from it.

Whatever else is taken from you, this can never be taken from you. Wherever you are, it's there with you. Wherever you go, it goes with you. Whatever happens to you, it remains with you.

When pantheists say WE REVERE AND CARE FOR NATURE, we mean it with just as much commitment and reverence as believers speaking about their church or mosque, or the relics of their saints. But again we are not talking about supernatural beings. We are saying this:

We are part of nature. Nature made us and at our death we will be reabsorbed into nature. We are at home in nature and in our bodies. This is where we belong. This is the only place where we can find and make our paradise, not in some imaginary world on the other side of the grave. If nature is the only paradise, then separation from nature is the only hell. When we destroy nature, we create hell on earth for other species and for ourselves.

Nature is our mother, our home, our security, our peace, our past and our future. We should treat natural things and habitats as believers treat their temples and shrines, as sacred - to be revered and preserved in all their intricate and fragile beauty.

 

[morganelise48]

I consider myself to be Pantheist.

From:
Pantheism.net
What Pantheism believes

At the heart of pantheism is reverence of the universe as the ultimate focus of reverence, and for the natural earth as sacred.

Scientific Pantheism - SciPan for short - has a naturalistic approach which simply accepts and reveres the universe and nature just as they are, and promotes an ethic of respect for human and animal rights and for lifestyles that sustain rather than destroy the environment.

When scientific pantheists say WE REVERE THE UNIVERSE we are not talking about a supernatural being. We are talking about the way our senses and our emotions force us to respond to the overwhelming mystery and power that surrounds us. We are part of the universe. Our earth was created from the universe and will one day be reabsorbed into the universe. We are made of the same matter and energy as the universe. We are not in exile here: we are at home. It is only here that we will ever get the chance to see paradise face to face. If we believe our real home is not here but in a land that lies beyond death - if we believe that the numinous is found only in old books, or old buildings, or inside our head, or outside this reality - then we will see this real, vibrant, luminous world as if through a glass darkly. The universe creates us, preserves us, destroys us. It is deep and old beyond our ability to reach with our senses. It is beautiful beyond our ability to describe in words. It is complex beyond our ability to fully grasp in science. We must relate to the universe with humility, awe, reverence, celebration and the search for deeper understanding - in many of the ways that believers relate to their God, minus the grovelling worship or the expectation that there is some being out there who can answer our prayers.

This overwhelming presence is everywhere inside you and outside you and you can never be separated from it.

Whatever else is taken from you, this can never be taken from you. Wherever you are, it's there with you. Wherever you go, it goes with you. Whatever happens to you, it remains with you.

When pantheists say WE REVERE AND CARE FOR NATURE, we mean it with just as much commitment and reverence as believers speaking about their church or mosque, or the relics of their saints. But again we are not talking about supernatural beings. We are saying this:

We are part of nature. Nature made us and at our death we will be reabsorbed into nature. We are at home in nature and in our bodies. This is where we belong. This is the only place where we can find and make our paradise, not in some imaginary world on the other side of the grave. If nature is the only paradise, then separation from nature is the only hell. When we destroy nature, we create hell on earth for other species and for ourselves.

Nature is our mother, our home, our security, our peace, our past and our future. We should treat natural things and habitats as believers treat their temples and shrines, as sacred - to be revered and preserved in all their intricate and fragile beauty.

I actually had a friend in high school who was a Pantheist. I found it really interesting at the time, but never quite understood it's entirety.

If you find all of nature as sacred, do you eat meat? If so, are there conditions (how they are slaughtered, thanking/being mindful about their 'sacrifice' etc?)

 

[GIjade]

I actually had a friend in high school who was a Pantheist. I found it really interesting at the time, but never quite understood it's entirety.

If you find all of nature as sacred, do you eat meat? If so, are there conditions (how they are slaughtered, thanking/being mindful about their 'sacrifice' etc?)

No, I don't eat meat, nor do I believe in hunting animals for food.

 

[Mole]

Weasel Words

I would just like to hear a few thoughts from the non-theists, like myself.

This is specifically geared toward NF'S, but feel free to discuss despite that. The only reason I say that, is because there is a sense of strive towards spirituality for many NF's. Wither this is a simple intrinsic motivation, or something more, I'm unsure of.

My main thought centered around this post is the concept of balance. I'll try to be efficient in my wording, without generalizing types. I'm merely 18, so I have some maturing to do. Also, I don't know many INFJ's of course, so feedback on this thought would be nice. For myself, and my mother who is also an INFJ, I tend to notice that we think quite logically. Sense I was young, I had a great deal of common sense. As does my mom. How I react to the external world in regards to my decisions, however, CAN be completely illogical. Almost as if I can see 1,000 different possibilities to reacting, and in the moment I may freeze and act completely outside of my line of logic. Likely just an Fe thing. (This isn't an exact description of what I think happens, just my way of putting it. I have the concept in my head, but finding the right words doesn't always work out lol.)

ANYWAY, this wasn't just a rant lol. I've always been interested in spirituality, yet dissatisfied (and to put in honestly, simply don't find any sense) in religion. I've always wondered if spirituality can help us (some more than others) organize and make sense of our emotions, thus being able to apply it to our logical decisions and thought processes, in a rational way. I've always thought that emotions and logic need to be bound together, balanced if you will, in order to come to actual truth. Rather than logic being equivalent to truth.

So my questions....
What exactly, in your own words, is spirituality without religion?
What spiritual 'practices' do you find useful?
How do you personally rationalize spirituality?
......And anything else you'd like to touch on.

Spirituality is a weasel word.

We use a weasel word when we want to weasel out of something.

So if we want to weasel out of religion, first we use the world faith, but if that doesn't do the job, we bring in the heavy lifter spirituality.

We know there is no evidence for the existence of supernatural beings and there is no evidence against supernatural beings, so we are left to ourselves to decide the likelihood of supernatural beings.

In the West this dilemma is compounded by our heritage, for 3,000 years ago our Ancient Greek forebears discovered that supernatural beings were natural forces, leading to Western science and the Enlightenment of liberal democracy, the economics of national prosperity, modern medicine, the abolition of institutional slavery, the emancipation of women, and the public prosecution of child sexual abuse.

And today many religions remain patriarchal, sexually abuse children, and some are violent and practice slavery.

So it is no wonder many of us want to weasel out of the word religion

And we quite reasonably want to weasel out because many religions remain rich and powerful and punish open opposition.

So we want to have our cake of spirituality and eat the fruits of the Enlightenment as well.

This is very well illustrated in Islam which uses the technology of the Enlightenment to wage the religious duty of jihad against the Kafir.

So essentially it is a way of avoiding the emotional pain of cognitive dissonance.

And the cognitive dissonance is between what we desire and what is likely to be true.

It is a conflict between desire and truth, usually mediated by a strong ego, but in our current culture of narcissism we have few strong egos, so it is only natural we weasel out of the emotional pain of cognitive dissonance.

So the reward of weaselling is emotional comfort, and the price is the truth.

 

[Coriolis]

If you find all of nature as sacred, do you eat meat? If so, are there conditions (how they are slaughtered, thanking/being mindful about their 'sacrifice' etc?)

Life feeds on life. It is the way of the world. The best one can do is to be mindful of the life that feeds our own, use it well and not be wasteful.

In the West this dilemma is compounded by our heritage, for 3,000 years ago our Ancient Greek forebears discovered that supernatural beings were natural forces, leading to Western science and the Enlightenment of liberal democracy, the economics of national prosperity, modern medicine, the abolition of institutional slavery, the emancipation of women, and the public prosecution of child sexual abuse.

And today many religions remain patriarchal, sexually abuse children, and some are violent and practice slavery.

So it is no wonder many of us want to weasel out of the word religion

We have different words because they are different things. Refer to my earlier post #2 in this thread for the distinction. But even with religion, you want to impose guilt by association. Just because one religion remains patriarchal, or has leaders who abuse children or advocate violence, does not mean all do. (Though as long as religious groups are composed of people, there will be some sexists, abusers, and violent folks among them just due to human nature.)

 

[Kheledon]

Great thread. Complicated question.

EIE (i.e. me) is highly "spiritual." Reared Catholic, I considered joining the priesthood when I was a teen. Science became my next "religion." I went to college, initially, to study physics. Being a humanist, however, and finding no organized religion that appealed to me, humanity became my religion. I love art galleries, for example. I call them "temples of humanity."

ENFJ in a Nutshell

ENFJs are idealist organizers, driven to implement their vision of what is best for humanity. They often act as catalysts for human growth because of their ability to see potential in other people and their charisma in persuading others to their ideas. They are focused on values and vision, and are passionate about the possibilities for people.

ENFJs are typically energetic and driven, and often have a lot on their plates. They are tuned into the needs of others and acutely aware of human suffering; however, they also tend to be optimistic and forward-thinking, intuitively seeing opportunity for improvement. The ENFJ is ambitious, but their ambition is not self-serving: rather, they feel personally responsible for making the world a better place.

What Makes the ENFJ Tick

ENFJs are driven by a deep sense of altruism and empathy for other people. They have an intuitive sense of the emotions of others, and often act as an emotional barometer for the people around them. However, their compassion not reserved for the people close to them: they are often humanitarian in nature, and may feel genuine concern for the ills of the entire human race. They tend to personally experience the feelings of others, and feel compelled to act when they see people suffering.

...

Popular hobbies for the ENFJ include organizing social events, reading, the arts, museums, storytelling, listening to music, writing, and gourmet cooking.

ENFJ in Depth — Discover Your Strengths and Make the Most of Your ENFJ Talents | Truity

Very "spiritual" and human-relationship centered, but non-religious in the "organized" sense. That's how I explain my own "spirituality," but then there's this:

ENFJ: The Cult Leader

ENFJs are big thinkers. They are extremely charismatic, and wish to offer the benefit of their wisdom to the world at large. They tend to see the grand scheme of things, and to be able to deduce connections between things that other people miss; these psychological personality traits are the result fo the fact that they are the Messiah.

ENFJs use their charisma and their knowledge to teach others, benevolently helping their fellow man reach a higher plane of evolution through such unorthodox but enlightened means as Psychic Third Nostril Enlargement. They then retire to secluded farmhouses in rural areas, where their followers express appreciation for the ENFJs by signing over all their worldly possessions and giving up their wives and daughters to the ENFJ's "special care." (Emphasis added by @Kheledon.)

https://www.xeromag.com/fun/personality.html

At least one person thinks that the "spirituality" of the ENFJ derives from its own, hyper-inflated sense of self-importance. Perhaps the ENFJ's religion is itself.

For what that's worth ...

 

[Zangetshumody]

Spirituality and "religious faith" can be perfectly inter-changable in my opinion.

I see the Christian Scripture as vast descriptions of a spiritual understanding, and the people who don't wish to understand the full depth of those accounts and doctrine, are mislead into an adoption by a false authority of someone else's guess-work.

The practical problem with trying to find a spirituality without recourse to religion, is just that the subject is so broad and encompassing, and so its very hard to develop a functional spirituality: especially if your understanding doesn't cover enough of the fundamental topics (to comprise of a big enough philosophical grounding to offer guidance on the matters of how to discern the actions that make up a lived experience). Religion can be a wealth for discovering all the issues that need to be overcome by a successful philosophy that functions as a spirituality.

To my mind, there is little point in calling yourself spiritual, when your spirituality contains the attitude of having serious doubts about the actions you witness and your choice about actions, and a reluctance to seek definitive resolution of those doubts.

The Hindu Scriptures (The Gita), is also pretty good at describing very important key aspects to proper spiritual life. In particular Chapter 3 of the Gita is a very simply explained process of the key aspects to entering the Kingdom of God. I believe the Christian Scriptures outline a similar path to salvation, but in so much more detail that is it overlooked by most so called Christian sects. Although I would add, that the full explanation that the Christian Scripture offers is the only pragmatic way I can ever see the salvation process being completed, even as it is detailed by the chapter 3 of the Gita. If your interested in reading chapter 3, as I would recommend to all Christians so as to have a better fundamental understanding of some the basic underlying aspect of Christian path to salvation: I would recommend Prabhupada translation, and also it's better to is listen to it, there are recordings on youtube, listening to it is a much better way of absorbing it than reading, for the purposes of study (in my experience).

Chapter 3 (my title: how to overcome and destroy kharmic influence)
Bhagavad Gita (Full Version Beautifully Recited in English) - YouTube

Also, Chapter 2 is a good general summary and introduction for chapter 3, so it might be beneficial to listen to the whole of chapter 2 first, so that you can understand about the specific elements that are being contended with by the explanations of chapter 3:
Bhagavad Gita (Full Version Beautifully Recited in English) - YouTube

 

[Riva]

Huh there is a book by that name authored by Sam Harris. I haven't read it, so can't comment on it.

I have some thoughts to share on this subject. Will do later.

 

[Mole]

Spirituality and "religious faith" can be perfectly inter-changable in my opinion.

I see the Christian Scripture as vast descriptions of a spiritual understanding, and the people who don't wish to understand the full depth of those accounts and doctrine, are mislead into an adoption by a false authority of someone else's guess-work.

The practical problem with trying to find a spirituality without recourse to religion, is just that the subject is so broad and encompassing, and so its very hard to develop a functional spirituality: especially if your understanding doesn't cover enough of the fundamental topics (to comprise of a big enough philosophical grounding to offer guidance on the matters of how to discern the actions that make up a lived experience). Religion can be a wealth for discovering all the issues that need to be overcome by a successful philosophy that functions as a spirituality.

To my mind, there is little point in calling yourself spiritual, when your spirituality contains the attitude of having serious doubts about the actions you witness and your choice about actions, and a reluctance to seek definitive resolution of those doubts.

The Hindu Scriptures (The Gita), is also pretty good at describing very important key aspects to proper spiritual life. In particular Chapter 3 of the Gita is a very simply explained process of the key aspects to entering the Kingdom of God. I believe the Christian Scriptures outline a similar path to salvation, but in so much more detail that is it overlooked by most so called Christian sects. Although I would add, that the full explanation that the Christian Scripture offers is the only pragmatic way I can ever see the salvation process being completed, even as it is detailed by the chapter 3 of the Gita. If your interested in reading chapter 3, as I would recommend to all Christians so as to have a better fundamental understanding of some the basic underlying aspect of Christian path to salvation: I would recommend Prabhupada translation, and also it's better to is listen to it, there are recordings on youtube, listening to it is a much better way of absorbing it than reading, for the purposes of study (in my experience).

Chapter 3 (my title: how to overcome and destroy kharmic influence)
Bhagavad Gita (Full Version Beautifully Recited in English) - YouTube

Also, Chapter 2 is a good general summary and introduction for chapter 3, so it might be beneficial to listen to the whole of chapter 2 first, so that you can understand about the specific elements that are being contended with by the explanations of chapter 3:
Bhagavad Gita (Full Version Beautifully Recited in English) - YouTube

Caveat emptor: the Bhagavad Gita has led to a caste ridden society.

 

[Mole]

Huh there is a book by that name authored by Sam Harris. I haven't read it, so can't comment on it.

I have some thoughts to share on this subject. Will do later.

Yes, for Waking Up: a Guide to Spirituality Without Religion by Sam Harris, click on Waking Up A Guide To Spirituality Without Sam Harris PDF | DropPDF

 

[GIjade]

Life feeds on life. It is the way of the world. The best one can do is to be mindful of the life that feeds our own, use it well and not be wasteful.

It is not the way of the world. Yes, life feeds on life, but humans have no need to feed on sentient life.

 

[á´…eparted]

It is not the way of the world. Yes, life feeds on life, but humans have no need to feed on sentient life.

That sort of gets away from the message. Ultimately we should all be kind and minimize impact, and if we choose not to, do it in the kindest way that can be done.

 

[Coriolis]

It is not the way of the world. Yes, life feeds on life, but humans have no need to feed on sentient life.

What do you consider to be "sentient life"? How do you know plants don't feel pain?

 

[GIjade]

What do you consider to be "sentient life"? How do you know plants don't feel pain?

Sentient life - humans and animals. Any creature with a central nervous system which can feel pain. Any creature who feels fear. Plants don't have those qualities.

 

[Forever]

Hi... I'm Forever.

Um Hi. I don't know what to believe. I have had supernaturalistic experiences happen to me. Are there truly dark forces out there? Possibly, although it's all too easy to account it for lack of sleep or stress.

Solo meditation helps let my thinking become linear. I guess I should do that more.

So yeah. *closes lips*

 

[Riva]

Yes, for Waking Up: a Guide to Spirituality Without Religion by Sam Harris, click on Waking Up A Guide To Spirituality Without Sam Harris PDF | DropPDF

Thank you.

Did you enjoy it?

 

[Coriolis]

Sentient life - humans and animals. Any creature with a central nervous system which can feel pain. Any creature who feels fear. Plants don't have those qualities.

How do you know - about feeling pain, that is? There are plants that will take measures to protect themselves, as many animals do. What class are they in? Dividing up living things on such bases is tricky at best and ultimately questionable.

The practical problem with trying to find a spirituality without recourse to religion, is just that the subject is so broad and encompassing, and so its very hard to develop a functional spirituality: especially if your understanding doesn't cover enough of the fundamental topics (to comprise of a big enough philosophical grounding to offer guidance on the matters of how to discern the actions that make up a lived experience). Religion can be a wealth for discovering all the issues that need to be overcome by a successful philosophy that functions as a spirituality.

How do you define "functional spirituality", and what are those fundamental topics that you feel someone must understand to be considered spiritual? Religion can also become a set of blinders that keep one from discovering or accepting meaningful inspiration and practical advice.

To my mind, there is little point in calling yourself spiritual, when your spirituality contains the attitude of having serious doubts about the actions you witness and your choice about actions, and a reluctance to seek definitive resolution of those doubts.

I have no idea what this even means.