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Spirituality Without Religion.

Zangetshumody

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Caveat emptor: the Bhagavad Gita has led to a caste ridden society.

The caste system is spelt out in the contents of some Vedas, the Gita itself is quite critical about the ultimate value of the Vedas.

The caste system that the Gita refers to, is recognition of the spirituality that is attainable in the roles of the various economic strata, because a person's own "duty" is a spiritual topic that must be properly regulated by each person's own mind in order to attain self-realization (complete understanding from the connection to a pure (and un-deluded/fully revealed) intelligence);- so for the Gita to avoid treating with the forces of the economy in context of the various roles of social-function, would make it remiss in offering council on spirituality.

But of course your opinion is often to put onto Religious-thinking, some impossible hurdle,- in order to manufacture the appearance of inconsistency, so I guess thanks for the uninformed opinion Mole, that it can now stand contradicted with the proper nuance applied.

[By the same logic, the Bible must be responsible for the Holy Roman Empire, and the Crusades, except if you've actually put any focus into reading the Bible to see what it teaches].
 

Lark

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Any of you guys think about taking your perspective beyond a forum and doing a paper or some sort of researched essay? Try and get it published in an edited journal or blog?
 

Zangetshumody

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How do you define "functional spirituality", and what are those fundamental topics that you feel someone must understand to be considered spiritual? Religion can also become a set of blinders that keep one from discovering or accepting meaningful inspiration and practical advice.


I have no idea what this even means.

The answer to your question is in the round brackets immediately after the phrase "functional spirituality". I don't think that my answer is that hard to fathom.

Then to address that thing that you say you have 'no idea what it means';- that is a practical test that will elucidate on all the aspects that need to be accounted for in my answer to your first question.
---
I chose not to produce a laundry list of topics, because that sort of list is easily denied and argued against, because there is no obvious a-priori imperative to have a list of particular subjects to be contended with. I could offer you such a list, but its too easy to have it dragged through the mud of disinterested speculation that choose rather not to investigate deep enough, so instead I formulated the answer in the subjective form of a consistency with one's own intelligence.
----
To offer a taste of some of the things on my personal list~
An example of a deep philosophical topic that this question relates to inside my own doctrine of spirituality is this:
(...now this is why I didn't write out these sorts of issues into a list, because they rely on a certain level of jargon in order to access the philosophical issues without being entirely abstract because of verbosity-)

[(this is but only) one fundamental] Question: how does the individual mind reconcile between the external referencing of an objectively stated experience, and his subjective perspective on that same experience, without an irreconcilable dualism (of irreducible un-fungible-ility between internal and externally referenced claims of truth)?

Answer with recourse to religious doctrine: The "Son" (of God- which we are all said to be in the Christian Scripture), is often regarded to be somewhat interchangeable with the phrase "The Word" in Scripture. This philosophical treatment by the Religion offers a very clear understanding of doctrine in Christian Spirituality: The Son, and the Word are alternatives depending on the point of view of the perspective, either (in the case of the Son-) being of the perspective of the spirit's own internal grounding, or (in the case of the Word-) the objectively stated referencing to its own internal grounding.

There are other Scriptural passages that would have to be considered in order to understand the broader depth to this example question, to furnish it with further reaching significance, but that requires to define more jargon:

Spirit= the chosen theme of an intentionally, the purpose imbued by the will, the purpose at the center of the intending to do something... (^I've tried to stating it 3 times in slightly different ways just there).

Also, a lot of further reaching affects of this understanding comes from understanding the planes that make up the lived experience: (famously in Scriptures- heaven and earth (and also an unconscious realm: 'the world'))
ie.
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

^ In this way, the Religion has given me enough grounding to know what I have to account for in my understanding of psychological reality, and how it functions to produce pathological unconsciousness, and the spiritual death in the "false-ego". The Bible doesn't itself contain any life, it commands very specific ways to building a Church that can attain to such advanced understandings;- but this requires sensibilities which are very peculiar to the machinery of worldly authority, and so it is not undertaken or taken seriously by the groups of people who are maybe trying to seek the truth, or perhaps just want to look like they are seeking it.
 

GIjade

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How do you know - about feeling pain, that is? There are plants that will take measures to protect themselves, as many animals do. What class are they in? Dividing up living things on such bases is tricky at best and ultimately questionable.
Of course. All life is programmed to survive. I'm just saying that human beings don't need to take the life of other, warm-blooded, sentient beings to survive. Animals have the same organs that we do. They're warm blooded like we are. They feel fear and pain like we do. And they're intelligent, some more than others. Biologically, plants are not like that. I know you hunt and consume your kill. And I know you have reverence for those animals that you hunt. Having that mindset is good; I just see it differently than you.
 

Mole

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The caste system is spelt out in the contents of some Vedas, the Gita itself is quite critical about the ultimate value of the Vedas.

The caste system that the Gita refers to, is recognition of the spirituality that is attainable in the roles of the various economic strata, because a person's own "duty" is a spiritual topic that must be properly regulated by each person's own mind in order to attain self-realization (complete understanding from the connection to a pure (and un-deluded/fully revealed) intelligence);- so for the Gita to avoid treating with the forces of the economy in context of the various roles of social-function, would make it remiss in offering council on spirituality.

But of course your opinion is often to put onto Religious-thinking, some impossible hurdle,- in order to manufacture the appearance of inconsistency, so I guess thanks for the uninformed opinion Mole, that it can now stand contradicted with the proper nuance applied.

[By the same logic, the Bible must be responsible for the Holy Roman Empire, and the Crusades, except if you've actually put any focus into reading the Bible to see what it teaches].

The Hindu caste system is obscene. It violates the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and trashes liberal democracy.
 

Coriolis

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Of course. All life is programmed to survive. I'm just saying that human beings don't need to take the life of other, warm-blooded, sentient beings to survive. Animals have the same organs that we do. They're warm blooded like we are. They feel fear and pain like we do. And they're intelligent, some more than others. Biologically, plants are not like that. I know you hunt and consume your kill. And I know you have reverence for those animals that you hunt. Having that mindset is good; I just see it differently than you.
Actually I don't hunt, though I have shared meat caught by a hunter I know. I just don't divide life into a hierarchy like that. Sure, in one sense you can put all life on some kind of continuum, then draw the line somewhere at what you are willing to eat vs. what you are not. But where to draw that line is rather arbitrary, much less a matter of right vs. wrong than of personal preference. Nothing wrong with preferences, as long as we don't claim more authority for them than they merit.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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Actually I don't hunt, though I have shared meat caught by a hunter I know. I just don't divide life into a hierarchy like that. Sure, in one sense you can put all life on some kind of continuum, then draw the line somewhere at what you are willing to eat vs. what you are not. But where to draw that line is rather arbitrary, much less a matter of right vs. wrong than of personal preference. Nothing wrong with preferences, as long as we don't claim more authority for them than they merit.

just bein' silly ;)

1ea184f90a2d631fd849cebd277677ab.jpg
 

Zangetshumody

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The Hindu caste system is obscene. It violates the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and trashes liberal democracy.

Also: the Holy Roman Empire and Crusade system is obscene. It violates the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and trashes liberal democracy.

Any more inane comments you can think of adding? I don't think I can bear to respond to any more of this quality of commentary where I'm obviously just being spoken at:- with an absolute disregard being offered to the substance of anything that's going on in these threads...
 

GIjade

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Actually I don't hunt, though I have shared meat caught by a hunter I know. I just don't divide life into a hierarchy like that. Sure, in one sense you can put all life on some kind of continuum, then draw the line somewhere at what you are willing to eat vs. what you are not. But where to draw that line is rather arbitrary, much less a matter of right vs. wrong than of personal preference. Nothing wrong with preferences, as long as we don't claim more authority for them than they merit.
You and I just see things differently, that's all.
 

Mole

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Also: the Holy Roman Empire and Crusade system is obscene. It violates the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and trashes liberal democracy.

Any more inane comments you can think of adding? I don't think I can bear to respond to any more of this quality of commentary where I'm obviously just being spoken at:- with an absolute disregard being offered to the substance of anything that's going on in these threads...

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights was written and ratified in 1948 when the Holy Roman Empire and the Crusades were well over.

And liberal democracy arose from the Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th centuries in Britain, well after the Holy Roman Empire and the Crusades were over.

So neither the Holy Roman Empire nor the Crusades could possible violate the Universal Declaration of Human Rights or liberal democracy.

However the Hindu caste system, in existence today, does violate the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and liberal democracy, particularly as the Republic of India is a signatory to the Universal Declaration, and is Constitutionally a liberal democracy.
 

Coriolis

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The answer to your question is in the round brackets immediately after the phrase "functional spirituality". I don't think that my answer is that hard to fathom.

Then to address that thing that you say you have 'no idea what it means';- that is a practical test that will elucidate on all the aspects that need to be accounted for in my answer to your first question.
---
I chose not to produce a laundry list of topics, because that sort of list is easily denied and argued against, because there is no obvious a-priori imperative to have a list of particular subjects to be contended with. I could offer you such a list, but its too easy to have it dragged through the mud of disinterested speculation that choose rather not to investigate deep enough, so instead I formulated the answer in the subjective form of a consistency with one's own intelligence.
----
To offer a taste of some of the things on my personal list~
An example of a deep philosophical topic that this question relates to inside my own doctrine of spirituality is this:
(...now this is why I didn't write out these sorts of issues into a list, because they rely on a certain level of jargon in order to access the philosophical issues without being entirely abstract because of verbosity-)
The information in the round brackets made no more sense than your other comment that I had "no idea what it means". But it seems you are deriving your inspiration from the Bible, which is not where I generally get mine, so I am probably not missing anything.
 

Zangetshumody

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The information in the round brackets made no more sense than your other comment that I had "no idea what it means". But it seems you are deriving your inspiration from the Bible, which is not where I generally get mine, so I am probably not missing anything.


Yes not anything, just everything.

- - - Updated - - -

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights was written and ratified in 1948 when the Holy Roman Empire and the Crusades were well over.

And liberal democracy arose from the Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th centuries in Britain, well after the Holy Roman Empire and the Crusades were over.

So neither the Holy Roman Empire nor the Crusades could possible violate the Universal Declaration of Human Rights or liberal democracy.

However the Hindu caste system, in existence today, does violate the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and liberal democracy, particularly as the Republic of India is a signatory to the Universal Declaration, and is Constitutionally a liberal democracy.

So the Nuremberg trials were a sham?

---
I've done my time in this thread now, I'm done playing in the mud.
 

Luke O

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I'm a strong atheist, yet I have explored my spiritual side and I have had times where I've felt like I can sense and manipulate "other energies". I remain sceptical, these sort of things need to be tested, but nobody needs God to be spiritual.

As for religion, the important thing to know that what you read and find out include other people's spiritual journeys. It doesn't mean they found anything useful but you can use it for inspiration for your own path, it would be foolish to follow someone else's path entirely.
 

Thalassa

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I was spiritual without being religious for quite a few years of my young adult life, and it was a very educational journey for me because it opened my mind to learning about other people's beliefs...I think what sustained me is that from late childhood I had a very strong sense of the presence of a higher power at certain times - but I didn't like the legalism I saw around me, nor the false religion associated with politics in the US.

I do think though that spirituality without religion can just as easily coddle a person into a spiritual malaise, where the person just becomes a rather shallow spiritual shopper, or excuses themselves or others of terrible behavior because it's convenient and subjective, or simply finds themselves lost in the parking lot of New Age Books and Jewelry. I had a heightened sense of this when I saw how yoga actually helped me and others, while others almost entirely erased the spiritual element and made it about looking hot in Lulu Lemon. I honestly think there are people who pretend to be vegan, to appear more ahimsa (just like a Christian could appear a certain way in church but no where else).

The broad concepts of Taoism helped me go back to the Bible and fully be able to understand the messages within, I still have a great deal of love for Taoist philosophy.

But the problem I found with all Eastern philosophy was once again a form of legalism, or attempting to save yourself. Though I'm not officially RCC, I fall very much into their camp of believing faith without works is dead (I find the concept of only being "saved" by a lot of Southern Evangelicals unsettling and I wonder if it's how many of them justify their greed or callous political beliefs)...HOWEVER, what Christ brings me that Taoism or yoga alone could not, is that I'll never be perfect enough to be that enlightened yogi monk sitting in a tomb, and that knowledge that I don't have to "save myself" as it were, brings a comfort and freedom that I was missing through large swaths of my fumbling, seeking young adulthood.

I feel better when I go to church. It's like hitting a reset button. I now understand the point of religion, and that spiritual religion can be practiced without oppressive legalism.
 

Coriolis

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But the problem I found with all Eastern philosophy was once again a form of legalism, or attempting to save yourself. Though I'm not officially RCC, I fall very much into their camp of believing faith without works is dead (I find the concept of only being "saved" by a lot of Southern Evangelicals unsettling and I wonder if it's how many of them justify their greed or callous political beliefs)...HOWEVER, what Christ brings me that Taoism or yoga alone could not, is that I'll never be perfect enough to be that enlightened yogi monk sitting in a tomb, and that knowledge that I don't have to "save myself" as it were, brings a comfort and freedom that I was missing through large swaths of my fumbling, seeking young adulthood.
Interesting. I was going to write that I have been spiritual without being religious for quite some time, but in reality I think I have instead become multi-religious. I only "officially" belong to one group - my Pagan group - and we don't stand on much ceremony where membership goes. You either walk the walk, or you don't. Beyond that, though, I often participate in both Christian and Bahai activities, though the former mainly as a musician. I really enjoy the feeling that I can "seek the Lord while he may be found", to paraphrase the psalm, without needing to follow the rules or limitations of any one religion. (Pagans don't really place limits.)

I am surprised by your comment about Catholics, though. I grew up in the RCC, and always understood "faith without works" to be the Catholic perspective, while Protestants emphasized the need to do good works. We were taught that it is only by God's grace--completely unmerited by works--that one is saved.
 

Thalassa

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Interesting. I was going to write that I have been spiritual without being religious for quite some time, but in reality I think I have instead become multi-religious. I only "officially" belong to one group - my Pagan group - and we don't stand on much ceremony where membership goes. You either walk the walk, or you don't. Beyond that, though, I often participate in both Christian and Bahai activities, though the former mainly as a musician. I really enjoy the feeling that I can "seek the Lord while he may be found", to paraphrase the psalm, without needing to follow the rules or limitations of any one religion. (Pagans don't really place limits.)

I am surprised by your comment about Catholics, though. I grew up in the RCC, and always understood "faith without works" to be the Catholic perspective, while Protestants emphasized the need to do good works. We were taught that it is only by God's grace--completely unmerited by works--that one is saved.

Protestants and Catholics both believe that we are saved by Grace. That's just Christian. There is no way to save yourself, by your self, and people who can or do, sometimes just end up feeling self-righteous. ..which is actually a spiritual impediment.

The idea of being "saved" in some Evangelical churches appears to be some end unto itself - I got Jesus, you don't, so you better get Jesus, so there...in the RCC there are actually things expected of Catholics, such as fasting, helping the poor, confession of sins...I'm absolutely not saying that all protestants are this way...but I think protestants - except for the Orthodox church and maybe Lutherans - have lost a lot of insight into why things like fasting and emphasis on remembering the poor are very much a spiritual growth practice for fully serving God...I mean the earth and the right wing of the United States would not be in the sorry state that it's in if more people professing faith as an Evangelical actually remembered that gluttony ia a sin and helping the poor is more important than their golf course.

How can I explain this better? Evangelical Christians dominate the right wing...and it's essentially used to excuse Christians from responsibility for actually trying to obey God more fully, for example all the stuff about thinking poor people deserve to be poor, or that being gay is somehow more evil than them not leaving their land fallow every seven years to feed the poor and wildlife (Exodus)...again I am not suggesting all protestants this way.

I think what I mean is that there's this streak in mainstream Evangelical thinking, that sort of reminds me of New Agers who think they are as enlightened as Krishna from one drug experience and that religion is now pointless and no one else :gets it: ...but with the Evangelicals it's more like I have Jesus and you don't nyah, nyah like it's a one time thing and now they're better than all those other sinners. People who understand the need for continually seeking God would not assume they were instantly completely enlightened nor would they think saying one prayer exempts them from admonishments to not serve money et al....it's the assumption that any one person does not need to continually choose God, that it's like purchasing life insurance, like welp, I have my ticket to heaven now, let me set to drilling the Arctic.
 
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Siúil a Rúin

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Posting a placeholder in this thread, so I can find it again and respond when I have time...
 

Mole

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Each religion, including the spirituality of the New Age, creates its own particular trance, where some parts of the mind go to sleep and some wake up. Usually it is the critical part that sleeps and the imaginative part that wakes up.

And each religion wakes up a particular imaginative part described and delineated by their particular doctrine.

Interestingly the religious trances are mutually exclusive, for instance, the Hindu trance and the Evangelical Protestant trance are mutually exclusive.

Sometimes the ill-advised try to reconcile Hinduism and the Evangelicals, but they prove to be two different worlds because they are based on different trances. And trances are not susceptible to reason. This is expressed in the sacred books by My God is a jealous God. In other words, my trance is exclusive.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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I wonder if I should start a different thread. I'm mostly thinking it would be interesting for people to describe their spirituality, whether or not it is tied to a religious structure. I have been developing a completely individualized spirituality, but I don't know how much to share. There is a way it has been constant through my life, even back when I stuck religious labels on it. It has to do with connecting to nature, seeing eternity in the manifestations of nature, but also going deep into my mind and feeling connections and power to direct into the world. I might be becoming a witch or going crazy, but either way it's a trip. :wacko:
 
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