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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    ...
    I remember being in that phase near the end. That was not fun. Still believing in God but not having a clue what to believe. You can study theology but it's all just someone's opinion and any conclusion you might reach is just your opinion. If god wanted us to know something it's well within his power to communicate effectively. Since his message is unclear he must either be incompetent, apathetic or nonexistent.

    If you should find yourself standing before god after you die just tell him you couldn't make sense of it. If he says the truth was obvious you tell him "STFU n00b, you knew my thoughts, I couldn't figure it out." If he sends you to hell anyway he's a dick not worth your affection.

    At least that's what I'll do if I'm wrong. You do what you like.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Much of religion is about subjective truth.
    Yes but many claim objective evidence.

    Now, can you please explain to me how free will doesn't prevent God from being Omniscient?

  3. #33

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    Well, here's a few thoughts to reflect on for you. First, the simple answer to your question: A benevolent God can not wouldn't allow for the existence of eternal torture and suffering.

    Ok, a few scriptures to show the condition of the dead (sinners or not)

    Ecclesiastes 3:19,20 (New International Version)
    Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return.
    Ecclesiastes 9:5 (NIV)
    5 For the living know that they will die,
    but the dead know nothing;
    they have no further reward,
    and even the memory of them is forgotten.
    Also, a scripture that contradicts the teaching that if you sin, you will be tortured forever:
    Romans 6:23 (NIV)
    For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    Basically humans who decide to not follow God are not going to be tortured forever. They just live their lives, and then die, with no hope of anything else. Which is fine, thats what they chose.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    i dont get this. I figure that logically, me hating God isn't an option! If he is so great and benevolent and powerful, what possiblie being could be dumb enough or hatefull enough to reject him?
    Several reasons actually. Among them pride in the face of the notion of an all-powerful being telling you what you can and cannot do. Some people can't get over that notion, and instead delude themselves into thinking they don't need God, because God is only for weak-minded fools in need of a crutch.

    1. you cant believe in something to be true just because it "feels right":

    "it just feels so right! we have to have a savior!?" "life would be pointless without a God, it just wouldnt FEEL right"

    the feels right method of guide fails. If it were right, then that girl i had a crush on in 8th grade would be with me simply because...drum roll.... "it just FEELS so right! {nothing physical implied!}"
    True, but one can also ask the legitimate question why does man have the need to have God in order to feel right. Doesn't prove it's correct, true, but neither does it disprove the legitimacy of God's existence.



    2. so if we can't get there on feelings... well then were do we go? to reason...
    Thats assuming reason is the only legitimate means of understanding God, while neglecting feelings. Feelings alone may not establish the legitimacy of God, but neither will reason alone. One can only understand God by using all their human faculties.

    problem is exactly what you just said: we often just create logical arguments for what we already hold to be true to us.... so this often breaks down into:

    "well theres both a descent proof AND refutation... FOR BOTH SIDES!"
    In order to fully understand yourself, the world, much less God and have discussions about it you have to ultimately accept something on faith. Otherwise, you'll go around in endless circles(as you do later on in this post) and thus understand nothing.

    what if i am not sure enough to ever truly believe in Chirst, but too fearful of the consequences to be an atheist. so then i possibly get no everlasting life AND i didnt get to go wild in an atheist life.... ....having a world view like this would seemingly torture me....
    Being a Christian doesn't mean the absence of doubt about the faith or in Christ. Rather it's the ability to overcome those doubts and accept somethings on faith. But to do so means essentially placing complete trust(that's what faith is ultimately, trust) in a being you cannot fully know or understand. That's a very scarry proposition to many, and yes it can lead you down some dark corners. But to do so means incredible courage on the person's part, and many people lack that unfortunately.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArtlessFuture View Post
    Also, a scripture that contradicts the teaching that if you sin, you will be tortured forever: Basically humans who decide to not follow God are not going to be tortured forever. They just live their lives, and then die, with no hope of anything else. Which is fine, thats what they chose.
    Wow. That's a stretch.

    Paul wasn't necessarily trying to offer a proof of whether there's eternal damnation, he was just setting up a comparison/contrast pair here (rom 6:23) of how sin results in death versus Jesus embodying life. You can't abscond with it to say specifically what sort of death is being discussed.

    This is why I generally hate discussing Bible passages. They're taken out of context to prop up concepts that the writer probably wasn't even considering at the time.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    do you mean that as in, "heaven isnt explicitly promised?"

    or that heaven doesn't sound great?
    I mean as: Heaven is probably same as hell on the long run.

    Why?

    I don't know what really Bible says but the picture that is common in public sounds like a bad scenario.

    For example, you like writting books but about what you will write in heaven?

    If you start to write novels you will have a problem becuse there is no infinite number of novels you can write without staring to repeat with time.
    Your mind has boundarys and its operates inside of them.

    But there is so big number of novels that can be written that it is fun to do it once again. but with time it is unavoidable that you start to repeat yourself once again. What will you do then? Start another cycle?

    What will you do after 10 cycles ? 100? 10000? 1000000?
    Will you still write novels?

    What after 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 cycles ?

    I mean you can mix writting with other activity but problem is still out there.

    What will you do when that huge number that is writting up there will be number of zeros after number 1 .


    There is a fact that you forget things with time but you always will be conscious of the fact that you have done this so many times that you will even need thousands of years to even say the number how many time did you do something.
    (becuse it is that Big)

    All people that go to heaven could ask god to delete their memory.
    But in that case people will figure out what happened quite fast and once again you have same problem.

    Since you can't die, the problem will be there forever always behind you and ready to destroy any fun that comes your way.
    Since you can't die you really can't experiance any real adventure becuse chance of survival is 100%.


    What will you do? Ask God to destroy you somehow?

    The only way to avoid this problem is that after death god turns you into something else. The point is that your human consciousness is no more so that you can grow and expand further.


    But in that case you have another problem. If God can turn good person into something else why can't he do the same with the bad person.
    If he can change entire mental concept I don't see why he/she/it can't destroy tiny part that makes someone good or evil?

    So all logical conclusions lead to sitation that there is no good and evil or right and wrong in reality we live in. (Heaven and hell included)
    I say this becuse all of us will get the benefits or no one will on the long run. If all of us don't get the same path that is not fair at all. Becuse you are not guilty for the fact that you have personality disorder or that your parents did not love you when you were a baby.

    If right and wrong do exist, all of us are predetermined to eternity we will not like. But if all of us will be turned to nonhumans, something might just come out right.



    Or the truth is something so abstract that human brain can't do anything about the problem. Why so may people think that there will be the end of the world soon. It is because world without the end is hard to understand and/or accept.
    Same works for reality without God.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Um... yes... but you can't just claim "paradox" as a certainty anytime a weakness in the argument is uncovered. True paradoxes and inherent fallacies often look the same on the surface.
    True and that's often where faith comes in. As Tertullian famously stated:

    "The Son of God was crucified: I am not ashamed--because it is shameful.
    The Son of God died: it is immediately credible--because it is silly.
    He was buried, and rose again: it is certain--because it is impossible."

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Several reasons actually. Among them pride in the face of the notion of an all-powerful being telling you what you can and cannot do. Some people can't get over that notion, and instead delude themselves into thinking they don't need God, because God is only for weak-minded fools in need of a crutch.
    True.

    True, but one can also ask the legitimate question why does man have the need to have God in order to feel right. Doesn't prove it's correct, true, but neither does it disprove the legitimacy of God's existence.
    True. And it leads to your next point.

    Thats assuming reason is the only legitimate means of understanding God, while neglecting feelings. Feelings alone may not establish the legitimacy of God, but neither will reason alone. One can only understand God by using all their human faculties.
    True.

    Very balanced.

    Feelings don't make things true, just as much as being able to beat someone in an argument doesn't mean your points were logical; but the presence of particular feelings does insinutate things about the design/nature of human beings.

    In order to fully understand yourself, the world, much less God and have discussions about it you have to ultimately accept something on faith. Otherwise, you'll go around in endless circles(as you do later on in this post) and thus understand nothing.
    It's a P thing. Bear with us.

    But you're right. I think ultimately for me, I realized that truth was not 100% discernable and that I had to invest and make hard choices over conflicting goods and narratives, then take responsibility for my choices.

    That's living.
    And I think that is faith too.

    Being a Christian doesn't mean the absence of doubt about the faith or in Christ. Rather it's the ability to overcome those doubts and accept somethings on faith. But to do so means essentially placing complete trust(that's what faith is ultimately, trust) in a being you cannot fully know or understand. That's a very scarry
    scary too. [altho the scars seem more plentiful sometimes!]

    proposition to many, and yes it can lead you down some dark corners. But to do so means incredible courage on the person's part, and many people lack that unfortunately.
    You're right. The problem simply is determining what one truly can put their faith in. Where is that line between folly and maturity?

    Some people avoid faith because they are cowards.
    Other people cling to faith because they are cowards.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by sassafrassquatch View Post
    If you should find yourself standing before god after you die just tell him you couldn't make sense of it. If he says the truth was obvious you tell him "STFU n00b, you knew my thoughts, I couldn't figure it out."
    He'd probably respond with Proverbs 24:7 "Wisdom is too high for a fool to understand."

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    He'd probably respond with Proverbs 24:7 "Wisdom is too high for a fool to understand."

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