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  1. #11
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    a narrative on how i can't understand how God could create hell and allow people to go there for eternity

    Oh no... the topic from hell ... err, about hell... again!

    Blood rolls down a lashed back. Tears and mucous choke the cries of pain. You recognize the face of this person as your best friend. Broken flesh reveals the lung cavity of an agonized young girl. Worms eat away at her lungs and heart as she coughs up blood. This was your daughter. An older man, is chained at one end of his hands and feet and is being pulled apart as his sockets rip apart, then are mended and then ripped apart again, over and over again. You recognize this as that amazing high school teacher you would never forget who helped you everyday after school on the math you couldn't ever do right. A dark bottomless pit fills with water, and there is a women trying to stay above the water, yet she continues to drown. Her, you recognize as your mother.... (etc)
    Rather than trying to answer the question in some way, I will mention a point of connection instead.

    Have you read Neil Gaiman's "Seasons of Mist" in his Sandman graphic novel story?

    He explores the same topics as you do, when he scripts a dramatic arc where Lucifer decides he's done playing patsy and decides to shut down Hell and go away.

    There's one evocative scene where a naked man is nailed and chained through his skin to a large rock, and Lucifer goes to tell him he's released.

    Lucifer: You! Did you not hear my proclamation? You are free.

    Breschau: I... will... not... leave.

    Lucifer: Oh, but you WILL leave.

    Breschau: You... do... not understand. I am Breschau.

    Lucifer: So?

    Breschau: I am receiving just punishment for my crimes committed while I was alive. For my crimes were MONSTROUS things.

    Lucifer: I don't care about your crimes. I want you OUT of here.

    Breschau: Demon, I will not be fooled by your prattle. I am Breschau of Livonia. I ripped out hte tongues of those who spoke against me, and cut the unborn babies from the wombs of my enemies' women, that they would not become warriors to rise against me. // I took my mother by force, and I strangled my sister when she would not consent to my advances. // Soon my name was whispered in the night by mothers to terrify their babes into obedience. I am Breschau who bathed int he blood of children. // I am Breschau who forced the true prophets of the lord to dance upon plates of iron, under which fires were burning, and I laughed at they danced. // I am Breschau, and when my mistress was unfaithful, I cut the nose from her face and worse it about my neck. AS for the woman, I had her sewn to her lover, and skin to skin, I left them in the desert to be eaten by ravens, and I laughed as I heard them scream. // I am Breschau, and this is my punishment.

    Lucifer: You must go.

    Breschau: Did you not HEAR me, fiend? I have KILLED --

    Lucifer: I heard. You killed a number of people who would be now long-since dead anyway. So what? You've been chained to this slab for eleven hundred years. Haven't you tortured yourself enough?

    Breschau: It's not me that is torturing me. It's the vengeance of the LORD -- Did you not hear? I -

    Lucifer: -- am Breschau. Yes, I know. // But no one today remembers Breschau. No one. I doubt one living mortal in a hundred of thousand could even point where Livonia used to be, on a map. The world has forgotten you.

    Breschau: But... I .... am...

    Lucfier: ENOUGH. Go.

    [Breschau is released.]

    Later, Lucifer is talking to Morpheus, lord of dreams, and says. "... they live their own tiny lives. I do not live their lives for them. // and then they die and come here (having transgressed against what they believed to be right) and expect US to fulfill their desire for pain and retribution. I don't make them come here. // They talk of me going around and buying souls like a fishwife come market day, never stopping to ask themselves why. I need no souls. And how can anyone own a soul? // No, they belong to themselves. They just hate to have to face up to it."

    Two angels end up taking Hell over, in service of Heaven, so that punishment can be restored. The two angels decide they want the punishment to have a point -- they are "kinder gentler rulers" than Lucifer had been.

    When one demon is flaying the skin from a damned soul, one of the angels flies over and stops him.

    Remiel: No. That was the OLD hell. That was a place of mindless torture and purposeless pain. There will be no more wanton violence, no further suffering inflicted without reason or explanation. We will HURT you, and we are NOT sorry. But we do not do it to punish you. We do it to REDEEM you. Because afterwards you'll be a better person. And, because, we love you. One day you'll thank us for it. (flies off)

    Victim (calling after, as the punishment begins again): But.. you don't understand. That makes it worse. That makes it so much worse.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #12
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    Oh brother, this has to be one of the most irritating topics to discuss in regards to theology. Not least of which because I often hate eschatological topics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    Im just struggling with the idea that this infinite God, would let an arbitrary barrier of this split second of peoples lifetimes (in a cosmic sense) be the last bell? Like why can't he continue to fight for your soul in the afterlife? why does he give up in the afterlife?
    There's considerable debate about when one's permenant fate is actually determined. I know of some Orthodox theologians who speculate that on the last day Christ does grant sinners in Hell one last chance to geniunely repent.

    I've also heard of Jacques Maritain's speculation that even a soul in Hell can still find salvation of sorts, where they then suffer the least amount of punishment. So technically they're still in Hell, but have found salvation.

    One could literally spend years, if not decades, looking into the various perspectives presented on this issue within the Christian tradition.

    well how does he suddenly stop loving us when we die just because we did what he programmed us to do?!
    God never stops loving us, even when we're in Hell. And arguing "doing what he programmed us to do" is a rather odd argument to make, since among many other things, it neglects the act of original sin.

    How is this all fitting into God pre ordaining who will be saved from the very start?
    Well Im speaking as a Catholic, not a Calvinist. The notion of God pre-ordaining people to Heaven or Hell is a Calvinist notion that is not found within most other Christian traditions that I know of.

    Catholicism holds that one goes to Hell because they consciously choose to reject God's ways and not seek proper repentence.

  3. #13
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Narrow eschatology to the little "deaths" of every hour and it's no longer a giant "but where does it all end?!" morass.
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    *literally makes sure this isn't in NF Idyllic*

    It doesn't, PP. There'll always be the good and bad, and happiness & joy aren't prolonged emotions, they refer only to moments. When I heard that years ago, I saw things a little more optimistically.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Not least of which because I often hate eschatological topics.
    Let me clarify a bit. I actually seek an eschatological understanding of the world - ie what is the ultimate purpose of life, history, everything.

    But the actual specifics of what happens at the end is what usually annoys me. Not that I don't care, far from it. It's just......it's really hard to explain. I guess it's just many people often miss the fricking point on so many levels.

    One of my oddities of character I guess.

  6. #16
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    one of my friends IRL told me that the idea of hell doesnt exist in the OT...in the OT its simply just punishment in this life and then death being the ultimate punishment...
    That's true. Sheol (the grave) is what exists in the OT. Both the righteous and unrighteous went there. The "faith" aspect involved believing that despite everyone going to Sheol, the faithful in JHVH would somehow be restored to real life and preserved somehow.

    (So the capital punishment cases seem even harsher in some ways. Nowadays we kill criminals but try to convert them and maybe they'll get into heaven. The OT Jews didn't have that. Destruction of the body was destruction of the life. And desecration of bodies was even worse -- the criminals whose bodies were being left out in the open to be eaten by scavengers? Well, they couldn't really be resurrected, their bodies were defiled, destroyed, and lost forever, as far as I can guess... there would be no resurrection for them, if such a thing existed.)

    Notions of heaven and hell evolve along with the personification of a devil figure.

    ...then suddenly the NT brings up this much darker view of being sent to place of terrible suffering... funny how i read somewhere Jesus preaches twice as much on hell as he does heaven.... yet ive never read a biblical description of heaven.
    I think one of the longest is probably in Revelation. So to me, that doesn't count in terms of getting a "realistic" view -- the entire book is metaphorical and symbolic.

    i kind of have to assume that absence of God would be torture in some sense we cant describe: like think about it...he takes away all the gifts you have? what is left? if you somehow can live on im guessing it would suck....
    There are those who believe in fire.

    I tend to believe that people flee from God if they hate him or can't submit to him... and that's hell. Because all relationship is built on some degree of submission and sacrifice. If you flee from God, you won't be able to tolerate any sort of real love/intimacy.

    I've had enough loneliness in my life that I don't want to imagine being lonely forever and believing that nothing would ever change. It would be excruciating and hopeless, like an inner black fire eating you empty like cancer gnawing brittle bones.

    Like why can't he continue to fight for your soul in the afterlife? why does he give up in the afterlife?
    The only half-palatable idea I ever had on this is that, as humans, we are ignorant. Thus, we chase what we WANT to believe in rather than what actually we know to be real. Our heart intentions are more obvious.

    Put another way, we know people who obey the law because they want to submit. Others obey the law just to avoid being punished. The attitudes are very different ones. The first shows a commitment to the law; the second is just self-preservation and opportunism, and as soon as they know they could get away with something, they would.

    Now replace "law" with "God" and then ask yourself which sort of people God would want to spend eternity with... and which types would want to actually spend eternity with God.

    I think, if Christianity is accurate and there's a God and a moment when we finally see him face to face, then in that moment our intentions will become obvious, and we'll either embrace him or run from him. Running from him leads us into hell.

    I thought God was great because he was unquantiable, or infinite. We loosely define his infiniteness as love. well how does he suddenly stop loving us when we die just because we did what he programmed us to do?!
    In my interpretation above, God would grieve over those who flee him but would not be willing to force them to obey and stay, out of love.


    as far as the quote you recorded here, at my age, I have resolved that what passes for apologetics is mostly just bullshit to justify one's current belief system. You're actually looking at the ramifications of the apologetics -- "But that would mean THIS!!! And I find that repulsive, many people would find it repulsive!"

    But that doesn't matter. How you feel about it doesn't matter to those who think differently. The idea is merely intellectually derived from the accepted doctrines. Thus it might seem internally consistent to them, and they don't bother to actually feel through what it means if implemented.

    You're operating from a values/ethics POV.

    This could be all side stepped by taking the entire bible as metaphor and going universalist...that all will be saved by being cleansed of the flesh during revelation (the second death would also be metaphorical). but apparently this is a heretical view.
    I have intellectual trouble believing that nothing we do matters because in the end we'll all be treated the same. That seems to downplay selfishness and evil. I have to think that our behavior has definite ramifications.

    In fact God should know exactly what it would take for each person to be saved based on their skepticism that he created them with!? Why couldnt a person who came to believe by witnessing God/jesus in person come to "believe"?
    You ask the good questions, hon. There aren't great answers. In the end, most people just take a "faith step," either for a particular religion or for their own personal ethics. Reason won't get you there 100%.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #17
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    *literally makes sure this isn't in NF Idyllic*

    It doesn't, PP. There'll always be the good and bad, and happiness & joy aren't prolonged emotions, they refer only to moments. When I heard that years ago, I saw things a little more optimistically.
    You don't bear the NFJ hallmark of "oh God, where are you?!"

    I've been doing that since, .... 3rd grade? *head shake* I read St. John de la Cruz, I get calm, something happens, I go cosmic again. I expect that to happen - as everything keeps evolving and changing.

    Where's Edahn and his Buddhist monkey mind when we need him!?
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    You don't bear the NFJ hallmark of "oh God, where are you?!"

    I've been doing that since, .... 3rd grade? *head shake* I read St. John de la Cruz, I get calm, something happens, I go cosmic again. I expect that to happen - as everything keeps evolving and changing.

    Where's Edahn and his Buddhist monkey mind when we need him!?
    *McMahon* You are correct, Sir! *"does" logic*

  9. #19
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Let me clarify a bit. I actually seek an eschatological understanding of the world - ie what is the ultimate purpose of life, history, everything.

    But the actual specifics of what happens at the end is what usually annoys me. Not that I don't care, far from it. It's just......it's really hard to explain. I guess it's just many people often miss the fricking point on so many levels.

    One of my oddities of character I guess.
    Not at all. I generally get annoyed and dismissive when anyone starts in on "Hell" because ultimately, there's little I can do beyond what my Christian leanings tell me. I can't control the FINAL outcome. Furthermore, I don't like wasting my time on speculation of that nature when people are starving and being tortured to death in THIS realm of existence. I don't handle "senseless" torture or maulings very well - those will send my compass spinning wildly.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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  10. #20
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    Pink's extremely deep and well written post
    Yeah, this is more along the lines of what I've been taught/think about things... that Hell is eternal separation from God.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

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