Why everyone should embrace hedonism.

[ThatsWhatHeSaid]

Psychologically, our behavior is motivated by our desire to experience pleasure and avoid experiencing pain.

...

If everyone looked at what is really pleasurable and what causes pain in their lives, and changed according to what they've found, people would be happier.

What if the search for pleasure is what causes pain?

 

[Athenian200]

What do you all think about this issue?

I'm not very good at hedonism (due to my weak awareness of my senses and such), and find it scary, as well as hazardous to my health and my reputation. Why would I want to indulge in it?

 

[ajblaise]

What if the search for pleasure is what causes pain?

Then the hope or promise of pleasure must in their minds be worth enduring the pain.

 

[swordpath]

Every act we perform is selfish, for instance if donating to charities didn't make people feel good they wouldn't do it.

Not the same thing. Hedonism is a "me first" mentality. Trampling on another to attain your pleasure isn't out of the question. Donating to a charity and finding pleasure in giving is not a negative thing. Correlating it to hedonism is silly.

 

[ajblaise]

Not the same thing. Hedonism is a "me first" mentality. Trampling on another to attain your pleasure isn't out of the question. Donating to a charity and finding pleasure in giving is not a negative thing. Correlating it to hedonism is silly.

Correlating it to hedonism is correct.

No matter how hard you try, you can't give me a scenario of a common human action and not be able to attach pleasure/pain to it to some degree.

 

[booyalab]

Huh?

How is there no foreseeability in human behavior if you assume they do everything to maximize pleasure and reduce pain?

If A then B or C or D or E or F or G or H or I or J or K or L or M or N or O or P or Q or S or T or U or V or W or X or Y or Z.

 

[swordpath]

No matter how hard you try, you can't give me a scenario of a common human action and not be able to attach pleasure/pain to it to some degree.

Well, I agree and that's life. Cause/effect. To any action you'll experience a degree of pleasure or pain. How are you defining hedonism though? If you do something good for someone else, which in turn brings a sense of self satisfaction, does that make you a hedonist?

Hedonism is defined as sensual self-indulgence. Self-indulgence is a negative thing because it leaves little room for the consideration of others. There are greedy hypocrites who drown in their own pursuit for pleasure, and maybe seek redemption through giving to charities - this makes them "feel" better about themself; then you have "good people" who genuinely want to look out for the best interest of others. Are these two types of one and the same? I think not.

 

[ajblaise]

Well, I agree and that's life. Cause/effect. To any action you'll experience a degree of pleasure or pain. How are you defining hedonism though? If you do something good for someone else, which in turn brings a sense of self satisfaction, does that make you a hedonist?

Hedonism is defined as sensual self-indulgence. Self-indulgence is a negative thing because it leaves little room for the consideration of others. There are greedy hypocrites who drown in their own pursuit for pleasure, and maybe seek redemption through giving to charities - this makes them "feel" better about themself; then you have "good people" who genuinely want to look out for the best interest of others. Are these two types of one and the same? I think not.

The argument is that psychologically we are already hedonists, but ethically, not everyone embraces, what, essentially, they already are.

 

[swordpath]

I actually made a thread similar to this a while back. Check it out:

http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...ing-we-do-have-hint-selfishness-its-root.html

 

[ajblaise]

Jeffster's response was more succinct, and therefore better...but, you know this is ridiculous, right? If everyone subscribed to the same reasons for doing everything, including all the mutually exclusive things, there would be even less assurance (than the little we currently have) that people's motives and resulting decisions take the form of cause and effect relationships. There would be no foreseeability in human behavior. Implications: no philosophy, no trust, no relationships, no economy, no society, etc.

It wouldn't matter if everyone consciously subscribed to the same reasons for doing everything, because on a base level, we already are.

 

[lowtech redneck]

By hedonism, do you mean utilitarianism or something more individualistic (i.e. centered on individual utility maximization and altogether unconcerned with the societal aggregate) than that? I apologize if that has already been adressed, I'm too lazy to read all of the posts right now...

 

[ajblaise]

By hedonism, do you mean utilitarianism or something more individualistic (i.e. centered on individual utility maximization and altogether unconcerned with the societal aggregate) than that? I apologize if that has already been adressed, I'm too lazy to read all of the posts right now...

What pleases or pains a specific person is a very individual matter.

 

[TickTock]

It would seem it's not such a good idea, unless the hedonism is in no way harmful to another person, or ssociety. I think the very nature of a successful society involves a certain amount of sacrifice on every one's part.

One person's gain is an others loss. We can't all love the same thing.

 

[ThatsWhatHeSaid]

Then the hope or promise of pleasure must in their minds be worth enduring the pain.

What if the final pleasure also turns into pain?

The problem with hedonism, as far as I'm concerned, is that it's unsustainable. There are ways to be much more happy and much more free that don't have to do with pain and pleasure, but shifting one's orientation to pain and pleasure. When that orientation is chasing and escaping, suffering arises. When it's accepting, calm and peace arise. This isn't the same as pain and pleasure. It would go something like this: life presents opportunities for pain and pleasure. Most people try to maximize the latter and minimize the former, thinking it will bring some relief to their searching. However, that's not the purpose of pain or pleasure -- just the opposite. Pain and pleasure are motivational mechanisms to make you survive and continue your survival. It's a never-ending pursuit because the more you plan for your survival and your offspring's survival, the more likely your offspring will survive, and since you're a product of your grandparents, you have those same unrelenting motivation mechanisms. It doesn't pay off by design.

 

[booyalab]

It wouldn't matter if everyone consciously subscribed to the same reasons for doing everything, because on a base level, we already are.

OK, then prove it. Oh yeah, you can't.

 

[ajblaise]

There are ways to be much more happy and much more free that don't have to do with pain and pleasure, but shifting one's orientation to pain and pleasure. When that orientation is chasing and escaping, suffering arises. When it's accepting, calm and peace arise. This isn't the same as pain and pleasure.

Accept pain and don't seek pleasure? If we just simply accepted pleasure and didn't seek pleasure, we'd all be dead..I'm not sure that's the ticket. Also why can't someone accept their temporary pain while at the same time trying to seek pleasure?

And happiness will always have everything to do with pleasure...because they are synonymous.

OK, then prove it. Oh yeah, you can't.

Can any psychological concept be proven? A theory will always remain a theory.

I'd like to hear your argument against the "psychological hedonism" theory, if you have one in mind.

 

[anii]

Technically, we are all already hedonists,

What do you all think about this issue?

Sounds good to me.

I'm in.

 

[ThatsWhatHeSaid]

Accept pain and don't seek pleasure? If we just simply accepted pleasure and didn't seek pleasure, we'd all be dead..

Maybe I should clarify. I'm talking about not needing it to be at peace. Not need to chase so desperately that you can't sit still. I don't think it leads to death.

And happiness will always have everything to do with pleasure...because they are synonymous.

I don't really think so. The times I've been happiest are disconnected to pleasure or pain. They involve acceptance, resignation, surrender, freedom, and listening to myself and others.

 

[booyalab]

Can any psychological concept be proven? A theory will always remain a theory.

I'd like to hear your argument against the "psychological hedonism" theory, if you have one in mind.

I already made my argument: a reason is meaningless if it explains every possible thing ever.

But I suppose I can think of more, if you insist. Pleasure can not be a prime motivating factor for every decision because of the existence of things cliches like "hard decisions" and "damned if you do, damned if you don't." Oh, and I can't forget the example that's right in front of my nose right now. I derive no pleasure from this argument, but here I am.

 

[reason]

Psychologically, our behavior is motivated by our desire to experience pleasure and avoid experiencing pain.

Why is the word 'psychologically' at the beginning of this sentence? It doesn't seem to be doing anything, unless its absence causes you pain or sumthin'.