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  1. #61
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    Why is the word 'psychologically' at the beginning of this sentence? It doesn't seem to be doing anything, unless its absence causes you pain or sumthin'.
    "Psychologically", rather than "sociologically" "scientifically". Just trying to be specific I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Maybe I should clarify. I'm talking about not needing it to be at peace. Not need to chase so desperately that you can't sit still. I don't think it leads to death.
    Do the peaceful people talking about not get any pleasure/happiness out of their peace with the world?



    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    I don't really think so. The times I've been happiest are disconnected to pleasure or pain. They involve acceptance, resignation, surrender, freedom, and listening to myself and others.
    If you are having feelings of happiness in a moment of acceptance, happiness is by definition pleasureful...how do you define the words differently than the dictionary?

  2. #62
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    "Psychologically", rather than "sociologically" "scientifically". Just trying to be specific I guess.
    It's redundant, but nevermind.

    Anyway, words are useless when they make no distinctions, and that is your problem. The way you define hedonism is such that everyone, no how they behave, is a hedonist; because on some level their decisions reflect what they want. While true, such a definition offers no distinctions, no information, to say 'Lisa is a hedonist' tells you nothing about Lisa, since we are all 'technically' hedonists, whatever decisions we make. We are all hedonists, but now the problem is about which hedonists do things correctly, and we're back to square one, no problem has been solved. The predicate 'hedonist' is empty. To call someone a hedonist would be like calling someone 'monkey or not-monkey', trivially true, and also pointless.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  3. #63
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    It's redundant, but nevermind.

    Anyway, words are useless when they make no distinctions, and that is your problem. The way you define hedonism is such that everyone, no how they behave, is a hedonist; because on some level their decisions reflect what they want. While true, such a definition offers no distinctions, no information, to say 'Lisa is a hedonist' tells you nothing about Lisa, since we are all 'technically' hedonists, whatever decisions we make. We are all hedonists, but now the problem is about which hedonists do things correctly, and we're back to square one, no problem has been solved. The predicate 'hedonist' is empty. To call someone a hedonist would be like calling someone 'monkey or not-monkey', trivially true, and also pointless.
    I separate "psychological hedonist" from "ethical hedonist". Which is the reason I included the distinction earlier.

    Everyone is a psych hedonist but not an ethical hedonist. Can't you see the distinction?

  4. #64
    / booyalab's Avatar
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    horrible
    I don't wanna!

  5. #65
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    i wonder what's driving you to keep coming back to this thread.

  6. #66
    / booyalab's Avatar
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    me too
    I don't wanna!

  7. #67
    Senior Member edel weiss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Psychologically, our behavior is motivated by our desire to experience pleasure and avoid experiencing pain.

    Technically, we are all already hedonists, but not everyone embraces it ethically. Religion can make people feel guilty about certain things that are very pleasurable to them. Societal mores, taboos, and laws also can prevent people from being the best hedonist they can be. (However of course laws and taboos should stay intact regarding things like murder, rape..etc).

    If everyone looked at what is really pleasurable and what causes pain in their lives, and changed according to what they've found, people would be happier.

    Short and Long term pleasure/pain has to be looked at too. A good hedonist will probably not get addicted to heroin because they know while it will cause short-term pleasure, it will probably cause long-term pain.


    What do you all think about this issue?
    I've read the entire thread, and I agree with you.

    People who sacrifice are doing it because they gain satisfaction from the act. People who follow traditions and customs do so because they wouldn't be happy not doing it.
    People who choose to lead a healthy life and hence spurn smoking and drugs are gaining pleasure from the idea of long term benfits of good health.
    It doesn't matter what you do; ultimately one is doing it for him/herself. This does not negate the achievements and work of humanitarians and great people, it simply means that they gained happiness out of what they did, which cannot be denied.

    People have different ideas of what gives them pleasure or pain. And as long as their pleasure isn't hurting other people (eg, rape), I think that everyone can be a good hedonist, it need not be seperated from being a good person.

  8. #68
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    Everyone desires satisfaction. Not pleasure per se, but satisfaction.

    Hedonism is something different.

  9. #69
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    For the sake of arguement, let us assume that everyone is a hedonist in actuality; if that is the case, then very few people should consciously embrace hedonism, as the result would be less lifetime utility for almost every individual.

    In the first place, most people derive utility from believing in (or even just wanting to believe in) various moral and ethical codes that presuppose some greater meaning or purpose in life than robotically satisfying the wants produced by diverse brain-chemistry and nervous system interactions. Therefore, the "embrace" of hedonism would be counter-productive in a reality where everyone is subconsciously hedonistic.

    In the second place, a functional society (necessary if one wishes to optimize personal utility) depends in large part on socializing individuals to temper their egoism with altruistic concerns. Even if this is subconsciously done for hedonistic reasons, making this process explicitly hedonistic would diminish the psychological impetus for engaging in this behaivor, especially during childhood where most such socialization takes place while higher reasoning capabilities are under-developed.

    Hedonism is like nihilism in these regards; if its an accurate depiction of objective reality, then its very truth makes it functionally irrelevent (at least for the vast majority of people). Given that, it seems silly and futile to either embrace such concepts or attempt to convert others to them.
    Last edited by lowtech redneck; 09-08-2008 at 03:32 PM. Reason: had more to add

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