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  1. #51
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    By hedonism, do you mean utilitarianism or something more individualistic (i.e. centered on individual utility maximization and altogether unconcerned with the societal aggregate) than that? I apologize if that has already been adressed, I'm too lazy to read all of the posts right now...

  2. #52
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    By hedonism, do you mean utilitarianism or something more individualistic (i.e. centered on individual utility maximization and altogether unconcerned with the societal aggregate) than that? I apologize if that has already been adressed, I'm too lazy to read all of the posts right now...
    What pleases or pains a specific person is a very individual matter.

  3. #53
    Mud and rain and chaos... TickTock's Avatar
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    It would seem it's not such a good idea, unless the hedonism is in no way harmful to another person, or ssociety. I think the very nature of a successful society involves a certain amount of sacrifice on every one's part.

    One person's gain is an others loss. We can't all love the same thing.

  4. #54
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Then the hope or promise of pleasure must in their minds be worth enduring the pain.
    What if the final pleasure also turns into pain?

    The problem with hedonism, as far as I'm concerned, is that it's unsustainable. There are ways to be much more happy and much more free that don't have to do with pain and pleasure, but shifting one's orientation to pain and pleasure. When that orientation is chasing and escaping, suffering arises. When it's accepting, calm and peace arise. This isn't the same as pain and pleasure. It would go something like this: life presents opportunities for pain and pleasure. Most people try to maximize the latter and minimize the former, thinking it will bring some relief to their searching. However, that's not the purpose of pain or pleasure -- just the opposite. Pain and pleasure are motivational mechanisms to make you survive and continue your survival. It's a never-ending pursuit because the more you plan for your survival and your offspring's survival, the more likely your offspring will survive, and since you're a product of your grandparents, you have those same unrelenting motivation mechanisms. It doesn't pay off by design.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    It wouldn't matter if everyone consciously subscribed to the same reasons for doing everything, because on a base level, we already are.
    OK, then prove it. Oh yeah, you can't.
    I don't wanna!

  6. #56
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    There are ways to be much more happy and much more free that don't have to do with pain and pleasure, but shifting one's orientation to pain and pleasure. When that orientation is chasing and escaping, suffering arises. When it's accepting, calm and peace arise. This isn't the same as pain and pleasure.
    Accept pain and don't seek pleasure? If we just simply accepted pleasure and didn't seek pleasure, we'd all be dead..I'm not sure that's the ticket. Also why can't someone accept their temporary pain while at the same time trying to seek pleasure?

    And happiness will always have everything to do with pleasure...because they are synonymous.

    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    OK, then prove it. Oh yeah, you can't.
    Can any psychological concept be proven? A theory will always remain a theory.

    I'd like to hear your argument against the "psychological hedonism" theory, if you have one in mind.

  7. #57
    homo-loving sonovagun anii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Technically, we are all already hedonists,

    What do you all think about this issue?
    Sounds good to me.

    I'm in.
    There's reason to be afraid, and reason to open your heart. ~ Seal

    Refreshment for your ears: www.kexp.org

  8. #58
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Accept pain and don't seek pleasure? If we just simply accepted pleasure and didn't seek pleasure, we'd all be dead..
    Maybe I should clarify. I'm talking about not needing it to be at peace. Not need to chase so desperately that you can't sit still. I don't think it leads to death.

    And happiness will always have everything to do with pleasure...because they are synonymous.
    I don't really think so. The times I've been happiest are disconnected to pleasure or pain. They involve acceptance, resignation, surrender, freedom, and listening to myself and others.

  9. #59
    / booyalab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post

    Can any psychological concept be proven? A theory will always remain a theory.

    I'd like to hear your argument against the "psychological hedonism" theory, if you have one in mind.
    I already made my argument: a reason is meaningless if it explains every possible thing ever.

    But I suppose I can think of more, if you insist. Pleasure can not be a prime motivating factor for every decision because of the existence of things cliches like "hard decisions" and "damned if you do, damned if you don't." Oh, and I can't forget the example that's right in front of my nose right now. I derive no pleasure from this argument, but here I am.
    I don't wanna!

  10. #60
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Psychologically, our behavior is motivated by our desire to experience pleasure and avoid experiencing pain.
    Why is the word 'psychologically' at the beginning of this sentence? It doesn't seem to be doing anything, unless its absence causes you pain or sumthin'.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

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