User Tag List

First 34567 Last

Results 41 to 50 of 94

  1. #41
    Senor Membrane
    Join Date
    May 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    3,190

    Default

    As long as you take bible literally, the conflict is not going away (unless the society decides to turn back time). I think bible can be understood as a product of it's time without taking away its meaning. Quite a lot of it is outdated, but that doesn't mean that the basic idea is.

    I think the religions should change. They are to give people a moral code (I know you can have moral without religion, but this doesn't happen for everyone). This is the most important function of religion. If the religion doesn't change, the people will drop it because its not working in the current society. After this you have a society based on market value.

  2. #42
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    4,601

    Default

    well, you've got 99% of the literature of the Middle Ages having been written directly into Latin, which wasn't the native language even of the authors let alone the intended audience... which includes highly influential spiritual and theological writings like Aquinas, Plutarch, etc... lots was written directly into Greek as well, like More's Utopia.

    Just a thought.

    nolla - I agree. It's part of the reason why I was drifting from Islam even before I was forcibly ejected lol I was concluding that it's just not practicable in Europe without so much effort having to be expended on being able to follow the letter of the law that there wasn't time or energy left to think about the spirit.

    Slightly on a tangent, but connected in concept is when every now and then some European countries start talking about whether they should have a written constitution either for the individual country or the EU as a whole. My instant thought is "Why?? Just because America has? Haven't we managed fine without one so far?" Because I see the written constitution of the USA causing as much difficulty as it's supposed to prevent, due to so much of it having been written in that was specific to the time it was done, and when enforced in the current society it shows up as just not appropriate any more. But "it is written", so to change it would mean "violating" something held as precious.

    I see the same struggle going on in "bible-based" or any text-based practice of religion.
    And hence it receives criticism such as "not relevant, disconnected from the modern world, not practicable". And, as you say, it becomes discarded...
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  3. #43
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    548 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    3,438

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Anyways, the reason why I am a bit offended about your post is this. If god is a being of superior understanding and love, how could he be so narrow-minded and egoistical to leave all the good people who don't believe in him to suffer in hell? After all, there are many people (including myself) who do not believe in bible, but attempt to live their lives loving their neighbor, that is, living their lives by the most important principles described in the bible while not believing in god.
    OK, the whole thing behind this is that man's good deeds are not enough to save him, because they are imperfect and inconsistent. Israel was given the entire Law, which included loving neighbor and so much more, and even those who meticulously tried to follow it (and then became judgmental of others) could never meet its requirements. God's standard was extremely high, and this was to show man his need for God's grace.

    So the whole point of Jesus coming in the first place is to bring forgiveness from the judgement man was under by the Law. While Jesus was there, and his apostles after him, "believing" (faith) was the way to appropriate or claim the forgiveness. The debate that will arise with the position I mention, is how long would that condition be mandated. Forever, or until a yet future "return of Christ" that never comes, or until the system and symbol of the Law (the Temple) was removed, a few short decades after Christ?

    Faith is something you either have or you don't. You can't make yourself a believer, but you can make yourself live by benevolent principles. In your way of thinking that isn't worth anything? If the Christian God in fact exist, he surely isn't as cruel as you imply.

    The religious people who think that their religion surely has to be "the right one" are as a group disgustingly prejudiced. I cannot stand them because of this. The nerve they have for saying that I go to hell for not having chosen the right book... This kind of attitude also contradicts Jesus' teaching.
    I had forced myself to believe that you had to make yourself believe to be saved, and then help others rush out to make everyone else believe to be saved, and anyone who just did not have the "faith', or even those who never get reached with the Gospel, are just out of luck. And that's now most of the world. Even many professing Christians are being warned as being disqualified because of their lifestyles or lack of commitment, and so-called "liberal" Christians have long been regarded as not saved.

    And "faith" (belief) ironically ends up becoming another kind of "deed" that people think only they have gotten right, and judge each other over, hence, all the doctrinal disputes with charges of "heresy" thrown around everywhere).

    Then, we have debates with Augustinian theology (also known as Calvinism, and also compatible with Lutheranism) that "solves' that problem by simply saying that God gives faith to whomever He chooses, and whoever does not get it, is a "vessel of wrath" that He preordained to hell. And that debate goes on. (One thread on a Christian board ran for 1300 pages! Not 1300 posts, but pages! The server could no longer handle it, so they started the thread over, and on it goes!)

    Then, others will just begin softening down, and saying, "maybe some who don't believe will still get in". Even Billy Graham is quoted as allowing this for the unevangelized. So I had a lot of problems with the apparent "cruelty" of that too, and Christ did say "to whom much is given, much is expected', so that is one evidence I point to to suggest that the strict demands of "faith" were for that generation (AD30's-70) only.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  4. #44
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    4,601

    Default

    Yeah but Eric, can't you see that the MEANS by which the Bible seems to claim that this process took place (the mass genocide, slavery, suffering of millions of innocents etc) are somewhat inconsistent with the idea of a loving, forgiving, merciful God who shows his nature in the life of Jesus AND claims to not have ever changed that nature?
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  5. #45
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    2,967

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sciski View Post
    The pastor at my church is extremely fond of pointing out inaccuracies in the translation.

    Heh, I looked up John 14:6 in Greek (http://scripturetext.com/john/14-6.htm):


    Plugged it into Google translate, and got:
    Sciski! I just reread and your post, which slipped by me the first time, made me laugh out loud. That's hillarious.

    Love cockeyed translations. Thanks.

    You guys seem to be getting closer to what I'm talking about now. Great thoughts, all.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  6. #46
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    2,967

    Default

    I need to post Sciski's computed-generated translation, apparently:

    "says these iisous I am the street and the truth and the life no one comes to his father if not by emou."

    I believe that emou is a rap singer so saying "I am the street" is most appropriate. Hee.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  7. #47
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    ...My branch of Lutheranism was progressive but very serious about taking much of the Bible literally.

    The movement to include feminism, homosexuality, Wicca, a more casual approach to sexuality and various other lifestyle issues which we now accept in society required quite a revisionism of scripture.
    I'm not sure if a lot of it is revisionism of the Bible per se.

    In some cases, it seems more like a revision of the popular/accepted interpretation that people had cobbled together out of the Bible because they wanted closure about an ambiguous circumstance or practice.

    That's why I'm more interested in applying Biblical concepts about relationships than I am about combing scripture looking for keystone points about a specific behavior (the latter of which being a more Te-style activity).

    When I was little it never occurred to me to ask, "Why did we kill Nazis and Japanese, Dad, if the Bible says, 'Thou shalt not kill?'"
    That would probably seat you firmly as a Boomer. I'm about 40, so I am probably in the next generation past you (Gen X); and incidentally those questions were the ones I found myself always asking as a matter of course. If something did not follow logically, I flagged it as something that needed to be reconciled.

    And those are also the sort of questions I'm not sure if there are good answers to. One can try to assemble a case from Scripture, but such cases are usually contrived and usually reflect the biases inherent in one's own position.

    So are you part of the ELCA, or Wisconsin Synod, or Missouri Synod?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #48
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    OK, the whole thing behind this is that man's good deeds are not enough to save him, because they are imperfect and inconsistent. Israel was given the entire Law, which included loving neighbor and so much more, and even those who meticulously tried to follow it (and then became judgmental of others) could never meet its requirements. God's standard was extremely high, and this was to show man his need for God's grace.
    That was Paul's assumption and many people's "best guess," yes.
    But it was "after the fact" thinking, wasn't it?

    I'm not saying it's unreasonable; but it's definitely intuition trying to "fill in the gaps" to reconcile old and new testament concepts, based mostly on Paul's beliefs.

    Approaching it from another direction: Does it make sense for God to dump an impossible law on his kids' backs, so that they at some point say, "Hey, I can't do this? I'm not good enough?"

    Do parents do that nowadays? How do we view parents who would teach such a large object lesson that way? Good or bad? Loving or evil? What's the normal results when a dad drives his kids too hard? Do they change course in SPITE of the parent or BECAUSE of the parent? And so on.

    (Those are serious questions, I would be interested in hearing what people have to say on this. )

    I had forced myself to believe that you had to make yourself believe to be saved, and then help others rush out to make everyone else believe to be saved, and anyone who just did not have the "faith', or even those who never get reached with the Gospel, are just out of luck.
    I know. I can identify. That is where my early faith life (from age 10-20?) was located as well.

    And that's now most of the world. Even many professing Christians are being warned as being disqualified because of their lifestyles or lack of commitment, and so-called "liberal" Christians have long been regarded as not saved.
    I felt uneasy about that even when young, and from age 20 -> now I've becoming increasingly dissatisfied with that sort of thinking... to the point where it not only seems wrong but evil in some ways.

    And "faith" (belief) ironically ends up becoming another kind of "deed" that people think only they have gotten right, and judge each other over, hence, all the doctrinal disputes with charges of "heresy" thrown around everywhere).
    Exactly. we all preach about how "faith" is about how you love others, everyone talks about compassionate conservatives recently... but it's still VERY much about what your theology is as to whether you are "going to heaven." It's not about how you live or what your fruit is; it's about what your talking points are and what doctrines you promote and what theology you've got right and wrong.

    (One thread on a Christian board ran for 1300 pages! Not 1300 posts, but pages! The server could no longer handle it, so they started the thread over, and on it goes!)
    That makes me want to both laugh and cry insanely, simultaneously.

    Then, others will just begin softening down, and saying, "maybe some who don't believe will still get in". Even Billy Graham is quoted as allowing this for the unevangelized.
    This might be a tangent, but I believe the focus on "heaven" as something that happens later is misguided. Jesus invited us into the Kingdom of God -- starting NOW. Physical death is an arbitrary barrier. When you live as a member of the kingdom, you're a citizen of the kingdom and you live and behave under the rules of that kingdom. That's how you recognize Christians: By how they live, by how they treat others.

    The kingdom surrounds every believer and extends itself into the world based on where any believer goes. Where they are, there is the kingdom -- THERE the law of love is being followed. THERE is freedom.

    This talk of heaven seems so silly to me. Like, misguided. It's just an extension of kingdom living NOW... perhaps perfected because the people will have been purified, but it's not like all of this life is a precursor to heaven. we're in the kingdom as soon as we become citizens.

    Jesus didn't say, "Realize how bad the world is and what an awful sinner you are and admit it", etc he said, "Today the kingdom of heaven is in front of you, pledge loyalty to it and join and be part of it."
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #49
    Senor Membrane
    Join Date
    May 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    3,190

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I had forced myself to believe that you had to make yourself believe to be saved, and then help others rush out to make everyone else believe to be saved, and anyone who just did not have the "faith', or even those who never get reached with the Gospel, are just out of luck. And that's now most of the world. Even many professing Christians are being warned as being disqualified because of their lifestyles or lack of commitment, and so-called "liberal" Christians have long been regarded as not saved.

    Then, we have debates with Augustinian theology (also known as Calvinism, and also compatible with Lutheranism) that "solves' that problem by simply saying that God gives faith to whomever He chooses, and whoever does not get it, is a "vessel of wrath" that He preordained to hell.
    These views are why I don't consider myself Christian anymore. I just don't want to believe that god is really that petty. This is not "God's Master Plan", this is ridiculous: "I create you so that you can try and get to heaven, but I have already chosen the ones who get in. Ha! Now worship me!" or "I create you so you can try to get in heaven, but I set the bar so high, you can't get in anyways. Ha! Now, believe in me and I will be merciful" This makes me think that god is really a six-year-old child toying with us. I rather believe that when I die, everything just ends.

  10. #50
    Senor Membrane
    Join Date
    May 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    3,190

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    This might be a tangent, but I believe the focus on "heaven" as something that happens later is misguided. Jesus invited us into the Kingdom of God -- starting NOW. Physical death is an arbitrary barrier. When you live as a member of the kingdom, you're a citizen of the kingdom and you live and behave under the rules of that kingdom. That's how you recognize Christians: By how they live, by how they treat others.

    The kingdom surrounds every believer and extends itself into the world based on where any believer goes. Where they are, there is the kingdom -- THERE the law of love is being followed. THERE is freedom.

    This talk of heaven seems so silly to me. Like, misguided. It's just an extension of kingdom living NOW... perhaps perfected because the people will have been purified, but it's not like all of this life is a precursor to heaven. we're in the kingdom as soon as we become citizens.

    Jesus didn't say, "Realize how bad the world is and what an awful sinner you are and admit it", etc he said, "Today the kingdom of heaven is in front of you, pledge loyalty to it and join and be part of it."
    I like this way of thinking. I think it actually draws Christianity closer to the eastern religions.

Similar Threads

  1. types and christianity
    By Blackwater in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 57
    Last Post: 06-11-2009, 04:12 PM
  2. Agnostic Devout (Christian)
    By Eileen in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 39
    Last Post: 10-02-2007, 05:28 AM
  3. Web Link: MBTI and Christianity?
    By Usehername in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 06-28-2007, 03:25 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO