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  1. #31
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    I don't really know Greek, but based on what you put there it sounds like the passage could easily be interpreted either way even from reading the original language.
    Yes, I still find it ambiguous in that regard as well.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #32
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    How odd the Bible is written in Ancient Greek.

    I mean the Koran was written in Arabic the language of Mohammed, peace be upon him. But the Bible was not written in the language of Jesus.

    This must have enormous implications for Christianity.

  3. #33
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    How odd the Bible is written in Ancient Greek.
    Not all of it was written in Ancient Greek.
    Over half of it (the OT) basically predates Greek.
    I assume you're just mainly meaning to refer to the Gospels.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Not all of it was written in Ancient Greek.
    Over half of it (the OT) basically predates Greek.
    I assume you're just mainly meaning to refer to the Gospels.
    Yeah,

    And the Gospels are about Christ - they form the heart of Christianity - yet they are written in a foreign language.

    It's as if the Constitution was written in Japanese.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Yeah,

    And the Gospels are about Christ - they form the heart of Christianity - yet they are written in a foreign language.

    It's as if the Constitution was written in Japanese.
    Figuratively, it worked for the Yangs and Coms on old star Trek -- but yes.

    Has there been any other book that later cultures have taken to heart so much, despite it being written originally in a non-native language?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Figuratively, it worked for the Yangs and Coms on old star Trek -- but yes.

    Has there been any other book that later cultures have taken to heart so much, despite it being written originally in a non-native language?
    This is a very interesting question.

    The Koran, for instance, is written in the native Arabic and the Arabic itself is regarded as sacred. So muslims today are taught to read and recite the Koran in the Ancient Arabic.

    While of course the Ancient Greek of the Bible is not considered sacred so there is no religious reason not to translate the Bible into any other languages.

    And this explains why we are christians or cultural christians - why we understand what christianity is all about.

    And of course the Ancient Greeks themselves spread Westward and took their language with them.

    But it was the monks in their Scriptoriums who translated all the Ancient Greek Philosophers in their attempt to translate the Ancient Greek Bible.

    And this is why Christianity is based on Ancient Judaism and Ancient Greek philosophy.

    It's quite a story.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The Koran, for instance, is written in the native Arabic and the Arabic itself is regarded as sacred. So muslims today are taught to read and recite the Koran in the Ancient Arabic.
    I think also that there are only a few manuscripts surviving and the manuscripts themselves are considered sacred. It's an interesting disagreement: Bible scholars claim the Bible is free of error because it has been copied so much (i.e., there are many many scraps over the centuries that can be compared to each other, as cross-validatioN), whereas the Koran scholars claim their work is pure because there are only a few authentic copies.

    And this is why Christianity is based on Ancient Judaism and Ancient Greek philosophy.
    True. A lot of greek thought / perspective there.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think also that there are only a few manuscripts surviving and the manuscripts themselves are considered sacred. It's an interesting disagreement: Bible scholars claim the Bible is free of error because it has been copied so much (i.e., there are many many scraps over the centuries that can be compared to each other, as cross-validatioN), whereas the Koran scholars claim their work is pure because there are only a few authentic copies.

    True. A lot of greek thought / perspective there.
    It's ironic, isn't it?

    And Ancient Greek thought brought its own denouement. For Christianity adopted Aristotle as their own. But when the Enlightenment began to show that Aristotle was mistaken on quite a few things, Christianity became alarmed - as well they might - as the very basis of their theology was being undermined.

    So they made a strategic error and Pius X declared the Enlightenment to be a heresy.

    But about 70 years later they backed down at Vatican II. But still, dare I say, they regard the Enlightenment with the remnants of suspicion.

    And let us never forget, dear Jennifer, that the New Age shares this suspicion of the Enlightenment.

  9. #39
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    I think it's more interesting to think about the stuff that is about Jesus' life and is not in the bible. Like the Nag Hammadi Scrolls.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Could you explain that better? I am not quite following exactly what your hang-up is, or what you found yourself doing that now you don't like... or what specifically you are describing.

    Thanks.
    Good morning, All.

    I went to sleep on your question last night, Jennifer. And I'm glad to see some of you here have gone ahead to think about this while I was resting. The extra posts and time have given me some ideas on how to say what I want to say.

    And I do tiptoe, as I realize, per nolla's reference, that my thoughts may stir upset in others. And that would not be my primary intention, though a little soul-stirring isn't always such a bad thing, yes?

    As substitute mentions, this dilemma is "loaded" bigtime with ethical issues and why it was such a crashing revelation to me. When I belonged to the church I still wasn't as educated on social issues as I have become. So when I saw so many conflicts between the Bible and what I was coming to believe I was unable to resolve them.

    You know, I realized last night that I may be older than the rest of my readers and see the tremendous transformation in American culture more starkly than many reading here.

    When I was growing up "Thou shalt not kill" meant what it said. "Thou shalt not commit adultry" the same.

    My branch of Lutheranism was progressive but very serious about taking much of the Bible literally.

    The movement to include feminism, homosexuality, Wicca, a more casual approach to sexuality and various other lifestyle issues which we now accept in society required quite a revisionism of scripture.

    When I was little it never occurred to me to ask, "Why did we kill Nazis and Japanese, Dad, if the Bible says, 'Thou shalt not kill?'"

    So I am reading with interest from those of you who will perhaps fill in for me some of how the revisionism was accomplished with historical facts and concepts.

    I suspect we are coming from different eras/cultures on this one. That's what makes this "Big" site so interesting and (also confusing) for me.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

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