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  1. #91
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Yeah Peguy, though I'm not sure where you get that aesthetics is neglected... not sure what Roman Catholicism is like in your part of the world but it's pretty aesthetic here... lol
    Well this is pretty much how a standard mass in my area looks like.
    [youtube=nCXLfz0huD4] Catholic Mass with youth choir[/youtube]
    [youtube=Lcs8xvUdgfo] Mass on the feast of Saint Peter and Saint Paul, 2008[/youtube]

    I could also post examples of "Clown" or "Polka" masses as well.

    So yeah, perhaps you now better understand why Im so hooked on Gregorian chants and everything else.

    Actually it's a total myth by the way, that medieval Catholicism concentrated on looks at the expense of substance. In actual fact pretty much every little ritual, every aspect of every ritual, every convention, tradition, even the gestures during a litany or liturgy, they all have behind them reams of theology... the shame comes in when that stuff has become lost due to a received perception, which goes unchallenged, this 'official story' of how it's all meaningless and not the substance...

    In fact for the illiterate medieval person, it was their way of accessing the substance on a regular basis.
    I was actually referring more to the 19th century and the time preceding Vatican II.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Yeah Peguy, though I'm not sure where you get that aesthetics is neglected... not sure what Roman Catholicism is like in your part of the world but it's pretty aesthetic here... lol
    I would say that for a long time in the more conservative elements of US Christianity, real beauty and aesthetics was mistrusted. Liberal elements tended to appreciate art; conservative elements tended to view it irrelevant and impractical unless it was didactic in nature. Art is mysterious and uncontrollable; aesthetics cause emotional reactions that were mistrusted, since the conservative faith was Te, very concretely logical in nature.

    Usually heavily artistic influences in the church that were not just vehicles to promote ideology were handled by the liberal side and the pentecostals, etc.... the more mystical branch of the church. Not until the later 90's, when the worship movement REALLY took off and Gen X Christians began to shine, did you really see honest art for the sake of aesthetic pleasure flood through the church and be accepted on a more widespread basis. the Emerging church movement is part of that as well.

    at least, that was my experience. As an artist in the church, I felt very stifled and still do to some extent within the more conservative belts of faith.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #93
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I would say that for a long time in the more conservative elements of US Christianity, real beauty and aesthetics was mistrusted. Liberal elements tended to appreciate art; conservative elements tended to view it irrelevant and impractical unless it was didactic in nature. Art is mysterious and uncontrollable; aesthetics cause emotional reactions that were mistrusted, since the conservative faith was Te, very concretely logical in nature.
    That's probably the one paradox I find about Protestantism. Even during the Reformation, Luther was more conservative theologically but allowed more freedom in regards to the writing of hymns. By contrast, Thomas Muntzer was more radical in theology, but liturgically relied on German translations of Gregorian chants.

  4. #94
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    ...whilst Anglicanism is happy to draw on the good points of just about everything since the Tractarian movement (Victorian) opened it up as a true via media again after years of puritannical stuff like you describe Jennifer...

    and sadly, it absorbs some of the bad, too as well as the bad it already had all of its own

    I guess all churches are human in essence, run by humans so inherently fallible...

    Unless you're RC in which case the entire church is spotless
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  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    That's probably the one paradox I find about Protestantism. Even during the Reformation, Luther was more conservative theologically but allowed more freedom in regards to the writing of hymns. ...
    Yes, he wrote new lyrics to old drinking songs, to make the hymns more accessible -- oh, the horror!

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    ...nless you're RC in which case the entire church is spotless
    like a lamb, hon. Like a lamb.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #96
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yes, he wrote new lyrics to old drinking songs, to make the hymns more accessible -- oh, the horror!
    I believe that was only true for "Vom Himmel Hoch da komm' ich her", although later on he rewrote the tune to it. That's one of my favorite of his, and here's a good version of it(first it was quotes, not it's youtube videos hehehe):

    [youtube=AneIdDFuLP4] Vom Himmel Hoch da komm' ich her[/youtube]

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    like a lamb, hon. Like a lamb.
    Is it not written: "Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed as long as I remain in full communion with Rome" and "go - your faith and your having checked the 'I agree to the above' box under the 700 page catechism, has made you well."?

    Or "Take this all of you, and eat it; this is my body which is shed for you and for all - well, hold on Matthew no, you can't have any because you still don't completely agree with Peter over certain issues and he's my vicar on earth dontcha know."

    haha... no seriously, I'm just being facetious, I seriously cannot be arsed to get into the debates and apologetics I used to enjoy so much. If it's people who are like innocent children who inherit the kingdom then anything that a child couldn't understand's gotta be extraneous really... the thief on the cross was with Jesus that day in paradise and he'd never so much as heard of the New Testament, let alone the pope.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
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  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Is it not written: "Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed as long as I remain in full communion with Rome" and "go - your faith and your having checked the 'I agree to the above' box under the 700 page catechism, has made you well."?



    If it's people who are like innocent children who inherit the kingdom then anything that a child couldn't understand's gotta be extraneous really... the thief on the cross was with Jesus that day in paradise and he'd never so much as heard of the New Testament, let alone the pope.
    In a nutshell, you have described one of the foundations of my current faith.

    And it was the same thing.
    I used to love apologetics and faith arguments.
    Now I just don't even see the point.
    Because of just what you said:

    God needs to be accessible without special education or minimum IQ.
    Otherwise it's not about the heart, it's about what you know.
    And then God is no longer accessible to everyone. Certain people will be excluded.

    If I'm on a desert island without a copy of the Bible, i should still be able to find, commune with, and love / be loved by God.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #99
    Sniffles
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    I don't think intellectual discussion is a hinderance to faith per se. The faith is universal, thus applies to all people and all circumstances.

    So yes we need our Thomas Aquinas, and we need our old women who pray everyday in church. One isn't necessarily more "Christian" than the other, but rather approaches the faith in the manner most suited to them.

    St. Bernedette of Lourdes failed her catechism classes, yet still proved her holiness. But I think it'd be wrong to conclude that catechisms are wrong because certain people achieve holiness without them.

    Same thing with aplogetics and other intellectual discourses on the faith. But they should serve the ultimate higher purposes of faith.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I don't think intellectual discussion is a hinderance to faith per se. The faith is universal, thus applies to all people and all circumstances. ...

    Same thing with aplogetics and other intellectual discourses on the faith. But they should serve the ultimate higher purposes of faith.
    I would never say they were hindrances either.

    I am merely approaching this from a minimalist POV, as someone who lived for so long in a culture where people tacitly (or even openly) insisted that certain things had to be done and believed for someone to "really be saved."

    What is the basic foundation of salvation?
    Not higher level discourse, even if it is useful to some.
    It has to be something that is universally accessible.


    That's all.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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