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View Poll Results: Free Will or Determinism?

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  • Free Will

    10 31.25%
  • Determinism

    16 50.00%
  • Jar Jar Binks

    6 18.75%
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  1. #51
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    We still have freewill to make a choice, all past does is present us with options.
    Im out, its been fun
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poki View Post
    We still have freewill to make a choice, all past does is present us with options.
    Wrong, the future presents us with possibilities (options).

    In fact, our ability to have possible ways of Being, and thus free will, is what the future means.

    That means that possibilities makes the future possible.

    The future is not meaningful to us in any abstract ways of not-yet-nows, it is meaningful to us because it is one of the ways in which we exist. We have a future, that means that the future is a characteristic of Being.

    Thus, the future is the most significant way of Being because it provides us with freedom, and a life without freedom would be meaningless.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evee View Post
    Wrong, the future presents us with possibilities (options).

    In fact, our ability to have possible ways of Being, and thus free will, is what the future means.

    That means that possibilities makes the future possible.

    The future is not meaningful to us in any abstract ways of not-yet-nows, it is meaningful to us because it is one of the ways in which we exist. We have a future, that means that the future is a characteristic of Being.

    Thus, the future is the most significant way of Being because it provides us with freedom, and a life without freedom would be meaningless.
    Wrong...tomorrow will happen irregardless of free will. If a choice is made for us or we make a choice via free will, we still have the future. It's just a matter of is ithat predetermined or not. Future does not guarantee possibilities, it guarantees a single path. You cannot take 2 paths in the future, you can take 2 paths NOW. The path you choose decides your future. Possibilities Doesn't mean anything other then...well...maybe one day...if I ever actually pick something. Possibilities are nothing more then empty buckets, empty buckets waiting to be filled.

    N's and possibilities lol

    Using your last statement you can be trapped today by a tyrant, but because you never know what tomorrow holds you are living life according to your own freewill and you are free....so long as you don't leave your cell until your told. Then maybe one day I will be a real boy, free to do as I please. Free to cut these strings and stumble on my own.
    Im out, its been fun
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poki View Post
    Wrong...tomorrow will happen irregardless of free will. If a choice is made for us or we make a choice via free will, we still have the future. It's just a matter of is ithat predetermined or not. Future does not guarantee possibilities, it guarantees a single path. You cannot take 2 paths in the future, you can take 2 paths NOW. The path you choose decides your future. Possibilities Doesn't mean anything other then...well...maybe one day...if I ever actually pick something. Possibilities are nothing more then empty buckets, empty buckets waiting to be filled.

    N's and possibilities lol

    Using your last statement you can be trapped today by a tyrant, but because you never know what tomorrow holds you are living life according to your own freewill and you are free....so long as you don't leave your cell until your told. Then maybe one day I will be a real boy, free to do as I please. Free to cut these strings and stumble on my own.
    Anticipation is the act of looking forward in time (Being-toward one's possibilities). But how is anticipation possible? What does it mean to "be toward" anything at all?

    The answer is: Because there is a future. (Not: There will be a future, as you have claimed.)

    You have made the mistake of viewing the future as something that is simply an abstract "not-yet-now", awaiting our arrival as we progress down a "path of time" (As if time were a path on which the "objects of our future occurrences" already lay in wait for us). Rather, the future is meaningful to us because one goes toward the future.

    To "have" a future means to expect, to anticipate (to look forward to). Thus, the future is meaningful to us as an awareness of our own possibilities of Being, and thus, if the future were merely a not-yet-now, it could have no meaning for us at all.

  5. #55
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    ...
    It is the experience of choice.

    You do have possibilities and are making a choice between them. Whether that choice is predetermined by or "free" doesn't change the fact that choice making is a real process and experience you go through. This sounds like a paradox because it suggests the other options were not "real possibilities" to began since determinism means it was impossible for you to choose them or anything other then what you've eventually chose, but that's a problem more to do with our semantics and language map then the problem itself, which largely fail to account that possibilities are in themselves existing factors - their potential has weight - an ideology might never come to power but the potential to arrive at system it describes is a real thing that has real impact and weights through those who can see it. Think about high school level Newtonian physics - that an object on a string swings to it's right doesn't negate the fact it might also have a force to make it swing to the left, it simply means there's a greater force to make it swing to the right, and your not going to be able to calculate the swing without both forces. The potential kinetic force is real. Likewise for possibilities, and thus choices. Essentially will doesn't need to be "free" of determinism in order to be will, nor is it any more free when enslaved to a coin toss.
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evee View Post
    Anticipation is the act of looking forward in time (Being-toward one's possibilities). But how is anticipation possible? What does it mean to "be toward" anything at all?

    The answer is: Because there is a future. (Not: There will be a future, as you have claimed.)

    You have made the mistake of viewing the future as something that is simply an abstract "not-yet-now", awaiting our arrival as we progress down a "path of time" (As if time were a path on which the "objects of our future occurrences" already lay in wait for us). Rather, the future is meaningful to us because one goes toward the future.

    To "have" a future means to expect, to anticipate (to look forward to). Thus, the future is meaningful to us as an awareness of our own possibilities of Being, and thus, if the future were merely a not-yet-now, it could have no meaning for us at all.
    The future is only as meaningful as your actions lead it to be. You are wrong in that you hold it to be this almighty "meaning" as if it always is. Some peoples Future is shit because they so choose this path everyday of their life. They do not anticipate the future, don't confuse your outlook with what something means. Don't confuse subjective meaning with objective reality. This world is not a fairy tale waiting to unravel in front of us where everyone will be happy and anticipate the future. Just look at those who commit suicide. I am speaking from reality, not some dream land of what I want things to be. To some the future is awesome and anticipated, to others it's shit.

    There are driver and passengers in life, I am a driver. The future is determined by the paths I take. I dont sit back and just let my world happen to me, I happen to my world. I take control when I want which directly chooses the paths my future will take. I also take responsibility for my actions which is why I believe they control my future. I live my life the way I want. So while I cannot predict everything that happens I can prepare for what I want and choose my paths. I don't anticipate my future, I live in the here and now preparing for my future. I will not live my life in anticipation of what could be, I prefer to figure out how to make it be.
    Im out, its been fun
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poki View Post
    The future is only as meaningful as your actions lead it to be.
    No, the future is meaningful because it presents us with possibilities. The present is significant to us only in terms of actions and situations that reflect our freedom to choose. It is not meaningful to view the present merely as a "background" for actual events, where we perform "everyday" actions which are part of a natural kind of activity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poki View Post
    Some peoples Future is shit because they so choose this path everyday of their life. They do not anticipate the future, don't confuse your outlook with what something means.
    No, some people have shitty presents because they are not anticipating the future. They are not aware of their own possibilities and are simply "waiting" for their future to come towards them, rather than going towards the future of their own choosing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poki View Post
    Don't confuse subjective meaning with objective reality.
    I'm not. Reality is a human construct and a result of high level theorizing. There is no reality without man because reality is a mode of man's interpretation of the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poki View Post
    I don't anticipate my future, I live in the here and now preparing for my future.
    That doesn't make sense.

    Anticipating = preparing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poki View Post
    I will not live my life in anticipation of what could be, I prefer to figure out how to make it be.
    So you're going to "figure out" how to make something you already have (a future) be.

    Um ok?


  8. #58
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    I was born to choose, but I didn't choose to be born.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    I was born to choose, but I didn't choose to be born.
    Are you sure about that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Archilochus
    The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one.
    And I am not a hedgehog......

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    Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers" not "blessed are the conflict avoiders.....

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    “Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”
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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evee View Post
    No, the future is meaningful because it presents us with possibilities. The present is significant to us only in terms of actions and situations that reflect our freedom to choose. It is not meaningful to view the present merely as a "background" for actual events, where we perform "everyday" actions which are part of a natural kind of activity.



    No, some people have shitty presents because they are not anticipating the future. They are not aware of their own possibilities and are simply "waiting" for their future to come towards them, rather than going towards the future of their own choosing.



    I'm not. Reality is a human construct and a result of high level theorizing. There is no reality without man because reality is a mode of man's interpretation of the world.



    That doesn't make sense.

    Anticipating = preparing.



    So you're going to "figure out" how to make something you already have (a future) be.

    Um ok?


    I don't go through life trying to find "meaning" in everything. I go through life seeing what is in front of me. Meaning in the way you refer to it is a personal opinion.

    I don't look forward to the future, I don't anticipate it, I have no feelings towards it very much. I plan for it so when it comes I will have good feelings and a good quality of life. I live in today, not the future. The future is a mere logical thought process of cause and affect so as to not screw it up. Ask those who know me, I don't anticipate, I don't live in possibilities, I live in the what is. When what is possible becomes what is AND I like it I will get excited, but that's not anticipation because it is the present. It is funny when someone tries to get me excited about what might be as if that's some kind of sales technique that works on me. Anticipation is a personal opinion on what may be. Anticipation is not equal to preparation. Anticipation is a half a wave length prior to preparation, it is not the only path that leads to preparation.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    I was born to choose, but I didn't choose to be born.
    Depends on where you were born
    Im out, its been fun

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