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  1. #81
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    That's very astute!

    I suppose yet once again though it is personal. I've chosen to focus on other things so even though this is probably a logically actionable answer, it's an answer to a question that I don't ask all that often.

    To me - and this is only me personally - it's like asking why you should play jazz when you could be playing jazz.
    Maybe more like 'are you playing jazz right now and don't know it'? But, I get it.

  2. #82
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I really don't believe life is inherently meaningless. After all, life does actually come with a directive, to live. Life also comes with other directives depending on the circumstances of your birth, your genes, your surroundings, etc. We're a kind of melody, accidental or not, searching for a tonic.

    People like to think that they are these wisps of absolute free will. I think this makes us feel powerful, but actually causes quite a bit of anxiety.
    You're anthropomorphizing nature. If nature is disenchanted then it can't have a purpose in the same way humans have purposes. Nature just does what it does. There is no success or failure. There is no fulfillment of purpose in any significant sense. Sometimes life continues and sometimes it doesn't. Maybe life will continue for another million years or maybe we'll snuff it all out in a nuclear holocaust next year.

    Take a hammer. You might say that the purpose of a hammer is to nail things, but that's just humans attributing significance to the hammer based on their own intentions. The reality is that independent of humans the purpose of a hammer is just to be a hammer. In the same way independent of any creative intent the purpose of life is just to be life and not necessarily to be alive as it may do whatever it might do just as a hammer might.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  3. #83
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    You're anthropomorphizing nature. If nature is disenchanted then it can't have a purpose in the same way humans have purposes. Nature just does what it does. There is no success or failure. There is no fulfillment of purpose in any significant sense. Sometimes life continues and sometimes it doesn't. Maybe life will continue for another million years or maybe we'll snuff it all out in a nuclear holocaust next year.

    Take a hammer. You might say that the purpose of a hammer is to nail things, but that's just humans attributing significance to the hammer based on their own intentions. The reality is that independent of humans the purpose of a hammer is just to be a hammer. In the same way independent of any creative intent the purpose of life is just to be life and not necessarily to be alive as it may do whatever it might do just as a hammer might.
    Lol, I'm not talking about nature in general, I'm talking about you and me. You are actually accusing me of anthropomorphizing people (anthros) here. I'm sorry Beorn, we can't have a conversation at all if there is no us to discuss things.

    And honestly, taking my statements more generally as 'nature' i.e. living things, I don't really see all that much difference except we have a layer of cognition reflecting on our cognition. That's the thing that trips us up and causes us to quest for meaning.

  4. #84
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Lol, I'm not talking about nature in general, I'm talking about you and me. You are actually accusing me of anthropomorphizing people (anthros) here. I'm sorry Beorn, we can't have a conversation at all if there is no us to discuss things.

    And honestly, taking my statements more generally as 'nature' i.e. living things, I don't really see all that much difference except we have a layer of cognition reflecting on our cognition. That's the thing that trips us up and causes us to quest for meaning.
    Sorry I misunderstood you. Plenty of folks make this claim so you can't blame me for the misunderstanding.

    But, now I don't know what you mean by "life" it would seem to me the way you're using it is as a construct, so...
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  5. #85
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Sorry I misunderstood you. Plenty of folks make this claim so you can't blame me for the misunderstanding.

    But, now I don't know what you mean by "life" it would seem to me the way you're using it is as a construct, so...
    I guess maybe I can see where the confusion is. You maybe are thinking that I'm saying that Life provides a meaning, as in it's an intelligent force. This is a similar discussion that I had with sprinkles. I'm not necessarily saying that at all. What I am saying is that all that is available to us is to find meaning within what Life has provided us, it has left us unique circumstances and the drive to attain a satisfaction.

    How this is different to me than being existentially lost, is that we have started in a specific time, place, circumstances with specific abilities in order to attempt to achieve fulfillment.

  6. #86
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I guess maybe I can see where the confusion is. You maybe are thinking that I'm saying that Life provides a meaning, as in it's an intelligent force. This is a similar discussion that I had with sprinkles. I'm not necessarily saying that at all. What I am saying is that all that is available to us is to find meaning within what Life has provided us, it has left us unique circumstances and the drive to attain a satisfaction.

    How this is different to me than being existentially lost, is that we have started in a specific time, place, circumstances with specific abilities in order to attempt to achieve fulfillment.

    I don't understand where you get the bolded from? That's the logical link I'm missing.

    Yes we all find ourselves in the midst of different construals that are impacted by concrete things, but I don't understand how anything you are saying is anyway different from just saying that life has no inherent meaning and we just apply meaning to it.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  7. #87
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    I don't understand where you get the bolded from? That's the logical link I'm missing.

    Yes we all find ourselves in the midst of different construals that are impacted by concrete things, but I don't understand how anything you are saying is anyway different from just saying that life has no inherent meaning and we just apply meaning to it.
    What I'm saying is that life has inherent meaning according to individual circumstances. We don't impose meaning, we reveal it.

    The 'in order to' applies to people's inherent drive to do this.

  8. #88
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    What I'm saying is that life has inherent meaning according to individual circumstances. We don't impose meaning, we reveal it.

    The 'in order to' applies to people's inherent drive to do this.
    Your inherent meaning just sounds like action - reaction. It only confirms my initial assessment. Life is what it is. You apply this stimulus or withhold that stimulus and it does this or that. That's not a purpose that's just being. The fact that there's consciousness involved and external reality makes no difference.

    From your description there doesn't appear to be a difference between imposing and revealing purpose.

    My assessment only changes if you somehow think consciousness is enchanted.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  9. #89
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Your inherent meaning just sounds like action - reaction. It only confirms my initial assessment. Life is what it is. You apply this stimulus or withhold that stimulus and it does this or that. That's not a purpose that's just being. The fact that there's consciousness involved and external reality makes no difference.

    From your description there doesn't appear to be a difference between imposing and revealing purpose.

    My assessment only changes if you somehow think consciousness is enchanted.
    Sure there is, there's a huge difference in knowing that meaning is to discover and not create. That's what words are for to differentiate, there's a huge difference in approach, and expectations.

    All I can say is that if anything is worthy of the word magic, consciousness is it. If not, free will is the one illusion that makes my life better to believe, and also more... natural.

  10. #90
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Sure there is, there's a huge difference in knowing that meaning is to discover and not create? That's what words are for, there's a huge different in approach, and expectations.
    I understand the difference between the two words.
    What I fail to see is how there is a difference in how you use them in reference to our consciousness and individual construal.

    You seem to be labeling whatever comes out of our individual consciousness that directs us as our purpose. Again that's a purpose, but it's a mechanical purpose without significance. A flowing river creates smooth pebbles that's just what it does there is no significant purpose there. You seem to be treating what emanates from our minds as a purpose because that's where the buck stops. But again in disenchanted materialist world the mind is just doing what minds do and so consciousness (and subconsciousness) are just chemical explosions and neuro transmitters firing off and who knows what else, but it's just a system doing what it does and whatever it does it is doing.

    All I can say is that if anything is worthy of the word magic, consciousness is it. If not, free will is the one illusion that makes my life better to believe, and also more... natural.
    Well, yeah logically I think you're left with a choice: either you believe in a deterministic material world or you believe some aspects of this world are enchanted and there is inherent meaning.

    We live in world where those two ideas are in tension with each other and the presumption seems to be that there is no heaven above and no hell below and so we concoct our own meaning because we don't want to look into the abyss.

    One more picky note. If you are speaking from a disenchanted materialist perspective than there is no such thing as "more natural" as everything is nature and nature is everything. "More natural" would only make sense if there is an inherent moral order within nature which it shouldn't be deterred from.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

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