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  1. #21
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 00c View Post
    You seem to live by "can't"s, "won't"s, and "don't"s, so what you say is of little value to me (I mean no disrespect), it's rather closed-minded, it's what I previously mentioned.
    I don't believe you actually know me well enough to say this.

  2. #22
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 00c View Post
    You're wrong. It's all one and the same.
    And I'm closed minded? You won't even hear out my side. You've shut me off right here at the gate.

    Go look at yourself.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    And I'm closed minded? You won't even hear out my side. You've shut me off right here at the gate.

    Go look at yourself.
    You're the one talking in "can't"s, "won't"s, and "don't"s. I understand what you're saying, I hear you, but I don't ascribe to believing in not believing.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by 00c View Post
    You're the one talking in "can't"s, "won't"s, and "don't"s. I understand what you're saying, but I don't ascribe to believing in not believing.
    Show me where I did that please because I don't recall.

  5. #25
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I recommend Preface to Plato by Eric Havelock and The Master and His Emissary by Iain McGilchrist if you are interested in what happened to the enchanted world. The former proposes it was the alphabet and literacy which changed our thinking, the latter contributes it to a power shift within the human brain in which the left ~logical hemisphere (the emissary) gained undue power over the right ~holistic hemisphere (its master). I think you would like McGilchrist's book, not least because, taken just a bit too far, it also gives you ammunition against the scientific modern world you so deplore.
    Maybe I will. But I still have to get through 900 pages of Charles Taylor's argument against the secular subtraction theory that intellectual and scientific progress inevitably leads to the demise of religion. Taylor recognizes that literacy was the means by which secularism took hold, but he doesn't think secularism necessarily had to follow from literacy.
    Take the weakest thing in you
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  6. #26
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Maybe I will. But I still have to get through 900 pages of Charles Taylor's argument against the secular subtraction theory that intellectual and scientific progress inevitably leads to the demise of religion. Taylor recognizes that literacy was the means by which secularism took hold, but he doesn't think secularism necessarily had to follow from literacy.
    A waste of time. 'Religion' is far too poorly defined (and definable) for that argument to hold much water.

  7. #27
    Member 00c's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Show me where I did that please because I don't recall.
    You're telling me that you can't make the equivocation of goals and life when they are in fact one and the same. You eat to survive, that is a goal. I must eat to live. I must go to work to make money and buy my necessities. These are goals and it works on a subconscious level and perhaps you're simply only speaking of what we consciously believe ourselves to do and say to ourselves which is actually very little of what is truly working underneath.

    That's only true if you equate goals with life. Not everyone makes this equivocation.

    Moreover you have no right to tell other people that they're unhappy. You can only say this about yourself.
    I cannot tell other people that they are unhappy? I can. Why can't I? I have the right to anything if I will myself to, but yet you want to persuade me into not believing in that manner. People are not happy if they have nothing to look forward to, they feel a meaningless existence with nowhere to go to. Why wouldn't they? Is there aimless people who are truly happy? The "thrill-seekers" who think parties and drugs will make them happy most likely aren't because there is no actual goal once you have it in the present, there's nothing to work towards. Nothing they can propel themselves to anymore.

    There is a VAST difference between saying that life has no inherent meaning, and believing that it needs to have one or otherwise you must stuff your face with 10,000 cakes in order to numb the pain.

    You're not understanding, you're mischaracterizing, you're relying on your boxed in beliefs and YOU are wrong.
    You're telling me I am not understanding. I am understanding. Yet the way we understand each other is different, of course, and you believe that I don't because I don't come up with something that you want to hear.
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  8. #28
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    A waste of time. 'Religion' is far too poorly defined (and definable) for that argument to hold much water.
    Well, he's specifically looking at Christianity.
    Take the weakest thing in you
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    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  9. #29
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 00c View Post
    You're telling me that you can't make the equivocation of goals and life when they are in fact one and the same. You eat to survive, that is a goal. I must eat to live. I must go to work to make money and buy my necessities. These are goals and it works on a subconscious level and perhaps you're simply only speaking of what we consciously believe ourselves to do.
    Yes and this is not inherent meaning, this is applied meaning.

    Inherent would mean that you DON'T need goals and that life itself would be enough.

    I cannot tell other people that they are unhappy? I can. Why can't I? I have the right to anything if I will myself to, but yet you want to persuade me into not believing in that manner. People are not happy if they have nothing to look forward to, they feel a meaningless existence with nowhere to go to. Why wouldn't they? Is there aimless people who are truly happy? The "thrill-seekers" who think parties and drugs will make them happy most likely aren't because there is no actual goal once you have it in the present, there's nothing to work towards.
    I don't need to believe that life has inherent meaning in order to look forward to anything. The only difference between looking forward to something and having it now is distance and time. You have to stay alive for the interim if you want to move forward, this is true. This doesn't make the interim significant other than what is between A and B.

    Being goal oriented actually hinders the argument for inherent meaning more than it helps.

    You're telling me I am not understanding. I am understanding. Yet the way we understand each other is different, of course, and you believe that I don't because I come up with something that you want to hear.
    You're clearly not understanding because you keep thinking I've said things that I'm not saying. What you're thinking I'm saying is so very much NOT what I'm trying to tell you.
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  10. #30
    Member 00c's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Yes and this is not inherent meaning, this is applied meaning.

    Inherent would mean that you DON'T need goals and that life itself would be enough.




    I don't need to believe that life has inherent meaning in order to look forward to anything. The only difference between looking forward to something and having it now is distance and time. You have to stay alive for the interim if you want to move forward, this is true. This doesn't make the interim significant other than what is between A and B.

    Being goal oriented actually hinders the argument for inherent meaning more than it helps.



    You're clearly not understanding because you keep thinking I've said things that I'm not saying. What you're thinking I'm saying is so very much NOT what I'm trying to tell you.
    But you keep saying "not" when it is. You continue to speak in negatives. You believe it isn't, I believe it is. That's it.
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