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  1. #11
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    He he means by 'inherent' is that you have to create meaning for it to be there, that there is none to life in and of itself.
    Yes. Inherent means that the quality is automatic and self contained and doesn't depend on external factors - or in other words an essential character, a quality which is not added and cannot be taken out.

    Take the isolation chamber I proposed a minute ago for example. If life has inherent meaning then it is still meaningful no matter how many things you take away (and we can include this as a logical extension of the fact that there's always some people living with less 'things' than others but we still call it life)

    If you live in a complete void for eternity that is still your life and the argument that life has inherent meaning would say that this life is still meaningful. I wonder how many people would actually agree once they got into it?

  2. #12
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    @Beorn

    It's not that 'external' and distant things don't get to me (I don't consider a difference between internal and external) it's that they're not relevant.

    Consider Shikantaza. The point of it is to sit and let things be. Everything simply unfolds. You do not block anything out, you don't distance yourself, you don't separate between inner and outer worlds. Things simply are.

    If you're already living then what's left to worry about? You already got this far didn't you?
    I'm not sure your definition of external and internal are the same as Taylor's. But admittedly Taylor is mostly focused on the western world and deals little with the eastern world where people tend to come to terms with the enchanted realm in a different way.
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  3. #13
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Oh I don't know if there's baseline meaning below that which we create. I know we can create more, but I don't know if it's there to begin with. I like to think it is, but I only know what my mind can conceive of.
    I think this is the state that most people are in. Where doubts about non-belief (in an enchanted world) linger.

    Let me know if I've mischaracterized you.

    In the same way as a believer I have doubts about the enchanted world in a way that premodern westerners never would have.

    So almost nobody feels secure in their understanding of the world in the way that people used to.
    Take the weakest thing in you
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  4. #14
    Member 00c's Avatar
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    We work on goal-striving mechanisms and the idea that life has no meaning is ultimately saying that everything we do is pointless and that there is no ultimate goal, which is not true, but yet those who do choose to live by it and believe it would certainly be rather miserable given that they've likely given up on any goal and have little to look forward to and work towards.

    I'm comfortable, I've got goals and this existence is much more wondrous than most let themselves believe given how pervasive closed-mindedness is.
    Coincidentally, look at all of the miserable people who trap their minds inside of boxes and compare them to those who let them run free towards where they want them to run. Mindfulness and all of that stuff. Surely, you'll only believe what you yourself work on the most on in your head by your own set of beliefs, so those who choose to believe in a "meaningless existence" will only look towards every reason to make it a meaningless existence and those who look to make it a meaningful existence will make it a meaningful existence. It's all only and always a matter of what you believe in.
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  5. #15
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 00c View Post
    We work on goal-striving mechanisms and the idea that life has no meaning is ultimately saying that everything we do is pointless and that there is no ultimate goal, which is not true, but yet those who do choose to live by it and believe it would certainly be rather miserable given that they've likely given up on any goal and have little to look forward to and work towards.

    I'm comfortable, I've got goals and this existence is much more wondrous than most let themselves believe given how pervasive closed-mindedness is.
    That's only true if you equate goals with life. Not everyone makes this equivocation.

    Moreover you have no right to tell other people that they're unhappy. You can only say this about yourself.

  6. #16
    Member 00c's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    That's only true if you equate goals with life. Not everyone makes this equivocation.

    Moreover you have no right to tell other people that they're unhappy. You can only say this about yourself.
    There's research to back it, have you done any extensive research on the topic?

    People eat to feel better, people hurt themselves to feel better, people do things every single day in the manner of goals to feel better or more miserable about themselves, we live by goals, we survive by goals.

    You're wrong. You seem to live by "can't"s, "won't"s, and "don't"s, so what you say is of little value to me (I mean no disrespect), it's rather closed-minded, it's what I previously mentioned.
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  7. #17
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    I think this is the state that most people are in. Where doubts about non-belief (in an enchanted world) linger.

    Let me know if I've mischaracterized you.

    In the same way as a believer I have doubts about the enchanted world in a way that premodern westerners never would have.

    So almost nobody feels secure in their understanding of the world in the way that people used to.
    Yeah perhaps!
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  8. #18
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 00c View Post
    There's research to back it, have you done any extensive research on the topic?

    People eat to feel better, people hurt themselves to feel better, people do things every single day in the manner of goals to feel better or more miserable about themselves, we live by goals, we survive by goals.

    You're wrong.
    There is a VAST difference between saying that life has no inherent meaning, and believing that it needs to have one or otherwise you must stuff your face with 10,000 cakes in order to numb the pain.

    You're not understanding, you're mischaracterizing, you're relying on your boxed in beliefs and YOU are wrong.
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  9. #19
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    So almost nobody feels secure in their understanding of the world in the way that people used to.
    I recommend Preface to Plato by Eric Havelock and The Master and His Emissary by Iain McGilchrist if you are interested in what happened to the enchanted world. The former proposes it was the alphabet and literacy which changed our thinking, the latter contributes it to a power shift within the human brain in which the left ~logical hemisphere (the emissary) gained undue power over the right ~holistic hemisphere (its master). I think you would like McGilchrist's book, not least because, taken just a bit too far, it also gives you ammunition against the scientific modern world you so deplore.

  10. #20
    Member 00c's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    There is a VAST difference between saying that life has no inherent meaning, and believing that it needs to have one or otherwise you must stuff your face with 10,000 cakes in order to numb the pain.

    You're not understanding, you're mischaracterizing, you're relying on your boxed in beliefs and YOU are wrong.
    You're wrong. It's all one and the same.

    "Mischaracterization" is based on the premise that everything is different, but it's not really, is it? You're saying that it all can't be the same, whole, while I'm saying that it can. The power of belief trumps doubt always.

    You're wrong.
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