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  1. #1
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Default Immanual Kant not nearly as smart as we thought?

    Here's my proof...take a look at this quotation.

    "Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. … This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance." — Immanuel Kant, "What is Enlightenment?" (1784)

    So the man is telling us on one hand not to listen to another for guidance, to use our own mind, but in the very same stroke he is breaking down his own integrity by giving us guidance which he knows we will undoubtedly take heed, some of us at least, many of us maybe not...

    But do you see how he is somewhat mistaken in his logic? Perhaps reading the DAO would have been nice for him.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  2. #2
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Guidance and catalyst aren't the same thing.

    It's like the story where a zen master slaps the floor loudly and it causes the emperor to achieve enlightenment. It some times just takes something to knock loose what you've already got so it can work. The potential is already there.

  3. #3
    is indra's Avatar
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    There's something from William James about this on the utility of philosophy

    I like that ur always challenging the status quo though, cuz Kant was a king

  4. #4
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    @sprinkles it's very possible that the quotation was mistranslated and is something other than guidance.

    Not to be argumentative, just to express why I still stand that he committed a logical error or was not thinking through it all:
    Guidance can still be a catalyst. I think Kant was committing a logical error on his part not realizing, if what you say is true, that a catalyst and guidance can be one in the same.

    I don't think that an enlightened person, for example, thinks entirely on their own. No man is an island. EVen by avoiding, going in the opposite direction of guidance, or ignoring it you are still taking the guidance. Zen is about non duality. So Kant did not really do what a zen master does in being non dualistic. He became dualistic in his statement and contradicted himself, his words, by his actions...we must admit Kant was not a god and even the greatest among us is but a sliver greater than the least.
    @sunyata
    Many people, Jung included, were influenced by Kant, but Kant was somewhat of a critic more than a philosopher. He did not provide sollutions. He was very similar to Plato's Socrates, almost a carbon copy, but he was no aristotile, to be quite frank, or pythagoras.

    I Think if Kant knew more math, or was more well rounded in his studies, his ideas would have been truer to the human experience. This is not just my opinion. Kant is also the genesis of many rationals behind slavery, death, and war...so we know that someone who's ideas feed these constructs is not entirely wholesome.

    But again, I'm not hear to judge Kant, maybe he was mother merry in disguise. I'm just saying the dude didn't think through what he said because he contradicted himself unintentionally so maybe he isn't as smart as we think.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  5. #5
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunyata View Post
    There's something from William James about this on the utility of philosophy

    I like that ur always challenging the status quo though, cuz Kant was a king
    BTW I appreciate that you think that I like to challenge the status quo...I do sometimes.

    I'm not trying to be argumentative here. Much of what I Read from Kant though seems reptillian to me, or so LOGICAL as to be an illusion.

    I prefer the mammalian spin on Kant by JUNG but I am finding that even Jung did not have the deep, warm blooded sentiments of post-modern existentialists like Foucault. If that's what Foucault is called...after all, none of them were able to address slavery and how geography asserts control over people....they all lived in a bubble of luxury and ease and spoke for very few people.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  6. #6
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    @sunyata

    hmm I'm reading some William James now...interesting guy....I probably won't be back here for a while since I like him so far.

    Thanks for the name drop.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  7. #7
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    @sunyata

    okay i just read james quotations and then went in to his biography...I can't take the man seriously. He was born so rich he never really had to struggle.

    I can't take someone who doesn't struggle because anyone who struggles knows that we are serving those who don't struggle and I don't read slave owners no matter what because their ideas are poison.

    Of course, it's my opinion that nothing good can come from the mouth of a slave owner, and I own up to that....but the fact that me and my fellow people are slaves is no mystery because our work is not our own, it belongs to master.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  8. #8
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    @GarrotTheThief

    I suppose that he appears logically contradictory.

    However if you were to not follow it because you think it is wrong then that is still guidance. So let's say for argument that you know he is wrong. If you don't do your own thing with this knowledge that he is wrong, in a way you'd paradoxically make him right because the inverse of a direction is still a direction.

    e.g. if I say do something and you don't do it because I said do it, I'm still in a sense guiding you.
    Likes GarrotTheThief liked this post

  9. #9
    is indra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    @sunyata

    hmm I'm reading some William James now...interesting guy....I probably won't be back here for a while since I like him so far.

    Thanks for the name drop.
    My pleasure.

    I think Kant gives a kernel of reason from which great thought can blossom.
    Likes GarrotTheThief liked this post

  10. #10
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    now it's kind of making sense to me...much of philosophy in the past has been written by those with money, gold, and power.

    The only disenfranchised philosophers we know about are from Greece....the Greeks were very democratic, unfortunately still some what biased against women, by our standards, but not by Victorian standards.

    SO that's why I cling to most modern philosophy because it talks about the pitfalls of the current slave/master system that we are all subject too where as anything written between 1300-1900 is probably from someone who lived in a castle.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

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