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  1. #11
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    well i'm in a morbid mood it seems, so I'm going to retire....and read some fiction...i guess...
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  2. #12
    is indra's Avatar
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    *pats @GarrotTheThief's head*
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  3. #13
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunyata View Post
    *pats @GarrotTheThief's head*
    thank you
    (cries on your shoulder and blows his nose in your armpit)
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  4. #14
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    @GarrotTheThief
    Also something slipped my mind that I meant to write:

    I don't think knowing that he is wrong is as important as what you do with the knowledge that he is wrong. I think that's where the difference between guidance and catalyst is.

    Since direction is direction in some way even wrong things can help you some times.
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  5. #15
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    okay i just read james quotations and then went in to his biography...I can't take the man seriously. He was born so rich he never really had to struggle.
    Struggle can take various forms. An excerpt from William's wiki:

    "In his early adulthood, James suffered from a variety of physical ailments, including those of the eyes, back, stomach, and skin. He was also tone deaf.[8] He was subject to a variety of psychological symptoms which were diagnosed at the time as neurasthenia, and which included periods of depression during which he contemplated suicide for months on end."

    William James - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    I can't take someone who doesn't struggle because anyone who struggles knows that we are serving those who don't struggle and I don't read slave owners no matter what because their ideas are poison.

    Of course, it's my opinion that nothing good can come from the mouth of a slave owner, and I own up to that....but the fact that me and my fellow people are slaves is no mystery because our work is not our own, it belongs to master.
    Sure he's bourgeoisie. See next.

    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    now it's kind of making sense to me...much of philosophy in the past has been written by those with money, gold, and power.
    Methinks philosophical pursuits are a Maslow thing. Which begs the question of the nature of philosophical pursuits, i.e. that we have the luxury of time and ability to pursue these matters in the first place, i.e. there aren't that many 3rd world philosphers.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #16
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    well i'm in a morbid mood it seems, so I'm going to retire....and read some fiction...i guess...
    I haven't read fiction in ages. I've been in non-fiction mode for a good 10 years+ now. Which is funny because I distinctly recall really disliking "boring" non-fiction (chuckles at younger self).
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #17
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    Here's my proof...take a look at this quotation.

    "Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. … This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance." — Immanuel Kant, "What is Enlightenment?" (1784)

    So the man is telling us on one hand not to listen to another for guidance, to use our own mind, but in the very same stroke he is breaking down his own integrity by giving us guidance which he knows we will undoubtedly take heed, some of us at least, many of us maybe not...

    But do you see how he is somewhat mistaken in his logic? Perhaps reading the DAO would have been nice for him.
    There isnt flaw in his logic as far as i can see. Basically what he says is that enlightenment comes from learning to think(and truly understand) things on your own instead of cowardly relying on other peoples guidance in thinking. He doesent say that you shouldnt listen to other peoples guidance, just that you should learn to think on your own and not blindly follow others. I think it sounds pretty good.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  8. #18
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    @sprinkles it's very possible that the quotation was mistranslated and is something other than guidance.
    The original word is 'Leitung', which, in this paragraph, can be translated as 'guidance' or 'direction'. It is altogether a good translation.

    As for the logical error: It does not exist. You might call it hypocrisy, but even that is reaching a bit too far. The philosophers and writers of the Enlightenment, regarding themselves enlightened, thought it their duty to act as teachers for the masses of the unenlightened; and for a teacher to encourage his students to use their own minds is less a matter of hypocrisy than a job description.

    In general, Kant made very, very few logical errors. Most of his errors lie in his premises, his assumptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    Many people, Jung included, were influenced by Kant, but Kant was somewhat of a critic more than a philosopher. He did not provide sollutions. He was very similar to Plato's Socrates, almost a carbon copy, but he was no aristotile, to be quite frank, or pythagoras.

    I Think if Kant knew more math, or was more well rounded in his studies, his ideas would have been truer to the human experience. This is not just my opinion. Kant is also the genesis of many rationals behind slavery, death, and war...so we know that someone who's ideas feed these constructs is not entirely wholesome.
    It is a mistake to read his Critiques ('Kritiken') as criticism; they are analyses, the word 'Kritik' meaning 'to set apart, to differentiate' at the time. He was very much a philosopher, attempting the gigantic feat of solving the fundamental problems of philosophy as he knew it and, as far as he could see, succeeding. He also studied, taught and published about mathematics. The abuses his works have suffered, like that of Nietzsche, owe much more to the willingness of the abusers than to the disposition of the abused. Nietzsche, for instance, whose ideas have been used by the Nazis to justify the annihilation of allegedly inferior men, personally loathed anti-Semites. Obviously, neither he nor Kant produced 'entirely wholesome' works, Kant's ethos being unpractically rational and perfectionist, Nietzsche's too easily lending itself to savagery. But both would have vehemently protested such uses of their essentially philosophical works.
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  9. #19
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    I haven't read fiction in ages. I've been in non-fiction mode for a good 10 years+ now. Which is funny because I distinctly recall really disliking "boring" non-fiction (chuckles at younger self).
    I read way less fiction than non fiction but a read an astronomical amount of non-fiction so fiction is the anecdote.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    The original word is 'Leitung', which, in this paragraph, can be translated as 'guidance' or 'direction'. It is altogether a good translation.

    As for the logical error: It does not exist. You might call it hypocrisy, but even that is reaching a bit too far. The philosophers and writers of the Enlightenment, regarding themselves enlightened, thought it their duty to act as teachers for the masses of the unenlightened; and for a teacher to encourage his students to use their own minds is less a matter of hypocrisy than a job description.

    In general, Kant made very, very few logical errors. Most of his errors lie in his premises, his assumptions.


    It is a mistake to read his Critiques ('Kritiken') as criticism; they are analyses, the word 'Kritik' meaning 'to set apart, to differentiate' at the time. He was very much a philosopher, attempting the gigantic feat of solving the fundamental problems of philosophy as he knew it and, as far as he could see, succeeding. He also studied, taught and published about mathematics. The abuses his works have suffered, like that of Nietzsche, owe much more to the willingness of the abusers than to the disposition of the abused. Nietzsche, for instance, whose ideas have been used by the Nazis to justify the annihilation of allegedly inferior men, personally loathed anti-Semites. Obviously, neither he nor Kant produced 'entirely wholesome' works, Kant's ethos being unpractically rational and perfectionist, Nietzsche's too easily lending itself to savagery. But both would have vehemently protested such uses of their essentially philosophical works.
    Thank you. I always learn from your posts.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    There isnt flaw in his logic as far as i can see. Basically what he says is that enlightenment comes from learning to think(and truly understand) things on your own instead of cowardly relying on other peoples guidance in thinking. He doesent say that you shouldnt listen to other peoples guidance, just that you should learn to think on your own and not blindly follow others. I think it sounds pretty good.
    hmmm.I wonder if he would have said in this day in age of mountain dew, heroine epidemics, and mass consumption of drugs that following guidance is in your best interest.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  10. #20
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    hmmm.I wonder if he would have said in this day in age of mountain dew, heroine epidemics, and mass consumption of drugs that following guidance is in your best interest.
    Dunno, but i would. Its wise to learn to think on your own whether or not you should be doing heroin, even if some of your friends would start doing it and tell you that its fun, so go ahead.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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