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  1. #1
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    Default I don't see how God could plausibly exist (Christian definition of God)

    Premise:

    I reject religion because of The Big Picture. The Big Picture, to me, is starting chronologically at the beginning of the Universe and working your way to this point in time, scientifically of course. (Forgive me if there are any errors in the science or chronology)

    Singularity --> Big Bang due to high vacuum pressure --> Stars and Galaxies form over billions of years --> About 9 billion years into the Universe the Sun of our Solar System forms --> Very shortly after, the Earth forms (.05 billion years after) --> the bombardment of earth by asteroids, meteors, etc --> 0.14 to 1.84 billion years into Earth's existence, Abiogenesis brings primitive cells into existence (on its own, no help from God needed) --> For a few billion years these primitive cells become more complex and compete for survival --> transitional forms of cells arise, the transition being single-celled to multi-celled (no help from God needed) --> Multi-celled organisms arise and begin to spread and evolve --> Precambrian --> (okay this is taking a while and I think I’m making my point, I’ll skip a bit) --> Homo Sapiens become a distinct species in the Homo Genus (we arrived this way on our own, no help from God), also a few subspecies of Homo Sapiens come about but go extinct (they came after us but died out) --> Homo Sapiens spread from Africa to the rest of the world --> We adapt differently to the environments of the world (had our species been isolated we would have branched off from each other, Asians, Caucasians, etc) --> Each culture has its own religious explanation for our origins --> (the Big Picture idea is made far enough)

    Argument:

    Why, after all of this, does God decide, "Homo Sapiens need to live according to my rules"? Why does God put himself in human form in some remote desert part of Earth to die for our sins that weren't committed (Adam and Eve never existed and never 'sinned' against God)? Why after all this time, with all these organisms over billions of years, does God decide that its about time for him to show himself? What happens to other organisms, when they die do they just cease to exist? Saved from hell but exempt from heaven? Why didn't he show himself to the other Highly-Conscious beings that existed in the Homo Genus, such as the Neanderthal? One could say that it is because God created us in his own image. However, evolution shows that our species needed no supernatural intervention to come into existence; we are not an exception to the theory. One could also say that because of our highly superior intelligence, God must have helped us to evolve at some point. However, there is a problem with this as well. A great example to refute this notion is as follows: A few people are locked in a room from childhood, they have a few things to keep them entertained in the room (natural things, maybe a log or some rocks), and the extent of their outside interaction with other humans is having food trays and water bowls that are slid inside of the room through a slit in the wall. Now, how ‘intelligent’ do you think these people would grow up to be? They might develop a primitive grunting language, make up some games with the play toys in the room, or even come to worship the slit in the wall where the food is pushed through. Our society and the knowledge that is passed onto us from past generations is what distinguishes us from other species.

    What about people that never hear the word of Jesus, are they forgiven for their ‘sin’, you would think that if he was a decent and intelligent God he would show himself to everyone at once to prove his existence? Were this God to be truly Benevolent, it would show Mercy to those who did not know of his existence, it would not send the un-knowing into damnation because of the God’s inability to show itself to them. But what about the people who do know about this God but still refuse to believe in it and don’t adhere to its rules? One may say that God would deliver Justice upon these people by sending them to hell, however, these people are in the same position that the un-knowing people were: They had no reason to believe. God, being the All-Knowing creator of the Universe, had to have known that these people would choose not to believe, and yet he didn’t give them a reason to believe, they do not deserve to be sent to hell, that would be Un-Just of God.


    Why does this God even make a heaven and hell for us in the first place? The place that we go to is predetermined. God is Omnipotent, All-knowing, and Outside of Time itself; he would already know where we would go to by definition. We have no choice. If we had a choice in what to believe, then the God wouldn't be God, because he wouldn't Know our every thought and what we would decide so that would make him Not All-knowing, A God that doesn't know everything isn't God. If God exists outside of Time, then our existence means nothing to him, the entire history of the Universe could be over in the snap of the finger to God, it is like he would have a Tivo-remote, he could rewind, pause, fast forward, skip to the end, everything predetermined by the show he was watching that he created, why would he care for a species that arose on earth for a fraction of existence in the history of the Universe? All of that makes no sense though, because the concept of Time is being applied to God! A God outside of Time cannot exist in this way, it is literally un-thinkable, our brains are wired to understand the concept of time, where there is no time it is non-existence to us, our consciousness makes up time, if the atoms in my body were scattered somewhere else in the Universe they would be indifferent to time's existence, they would interact with time but time wouldn't Mean anything to them. If God existed in his own sense of Time outside our Universe (whatever "outside our universe" may mean) wouldn't he have to be physically comprised of something to exist? Our only explanation for Consciousness is a highly developed brain, how could God be Conscious if he has no physical form? If God were Physically comprised of something, in a sense of time, would he be outside our Universe? Wouldn't those things be applied to Our Universe? Saying that God has no physical form, yet is conscious, and in a state of time where it would chronologically witness the events of Our Universe, makes no logical sense. And besides it making no sense, it does not answer any questions, “Magic man Poofed it” does not solve a question, it creates More questions. For instance, one can ask “If God created our Universe, Who created God?” This may seem cliché, however it is still valid. The reason it is valid is because the usual answer to this question is: “God is Eternal, he has no creator and has existed forever.” However, this is not a valid answer for this reason: Eternity is a concept that is confined to a sense of time. The definition of Eternity: “1. Infinite time; duration with out beginning or end. 2. Eternal existence.” One can see that the answer “God is eternal” is not a valid answer to the question; the answer is actually false given the definition of God. God, being outside of the confines of Time, cannot be applied to the word Eternal or Eternity; the word itself actually makes little sense and is of little use to explain anything at all. So, it has been proven that the question: “Who created God?” is still valid. Why then, the need for a Creator, if it can be said there is an infinite line of creators creating each creator?

    I have no reason to believe in God via personal experience. I have no reason to believe in God via the logic that is instilled in my consciousness, if I had a different thought process (different sense of logic) then maybe I would.
    Last edited by Didums; 08-27-2008 at 12:55 AM.

  2. #2
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    You and me both...

    You and me both.
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  3. #3
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    +1 internets to you.

  4. #4
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    What put the "singularity" there?
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  5. #5
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    I never understand why people who don't believe in the Bible as absolute word of God, then go back and reference the Bible in their proof that God doesn't exist...and do so by quoting the Bible "God says he created man in his image." We don't know God said that! We don't know what God said or didn't say because humans wrote the Christian Bible. Proof that the Bible is illogical is just that, proof that the Bible is illogical, it says nothing in favor or against a God or Gods existing at all.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    What put the "singularity" there?
    Welcome to the cutting edge of theoretical physics. "Magic man done it" doesn't explain anything.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    What put the "singularity" there?
    A Singularity is a point where energy density (matter density too, they are interchangable) is so massive that the gravity it creates pulls the fabrics of space-time in a way that it becomes infinitely curved. Knowing this, because our Universe was in a Singularity before the Big Bang, Space-Time and Energy were already present in this singularity.

    Most scientists think that the laws of science break down inside of a Singularity, however there are some that try to bring alternate reasonings to how they can still be present in the singularity.

    Also, saying "what put the 'singularity' there" infers that the Universe has an Origin, which isn't scientifically needed in some theories.

  8. #8
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Heh, the OP seems to describe John Calvin's God. Well you don't believe in that one. There are plenty of more possibilities.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I never understand why people who don't believe in the Bible as absolute word of God, then go back and reference the Bible in their proof that God doesn't exist...and do so by quoting the Bible "God says he created man in his image." We don't know God said that! We don't know what God said or didn't say because humans wrote the Christian Bible. Proof that the Bible is illogical is just that, proof that the Bible is illogical, it says nothing in favor or against a God or Gods existing at all.
    It isn't necessarily and Argument from Fallacy like you're trying to point out. You also have to remember that if the concept of God Is Not made up by us, then one of the teachings/books of a religion is likely the Word of God. I don't want to create a false dichotomy so thats why I said "is likely" instead of "Is". There is always the chance that there is a God figure that isn't bound to our definition of God and has never shown itself, but if God exists like that, then its existence means Absolutely Nothing.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didums View Post
    You also have to remember that if the concept of God Is Not made up by Us, then the word of one of the world religions that believes their book Is the word of God is likely to be true (bad phrasing, my bad).
    Why are you making that connection? If God exists, then why assume that anyone here on Earth has the true/pure scoop on God? These two things don't follow.

    Maybe humans want to make God into something they can understand, so in that way they "made God up" but what if God as God exists is not understandable by humans at our current level of perception and awareness. That's just one of endless possiblities.

    There is always the chance that there is a God figure that isn't bound to our definition of God and has never shown himself, but if God exists like that, then his existence means Absolutely Nothing.
    That doesn't follow either. For example: If God is the force making the protons and neutrons go round then that does affect us very much.

    Also it's a mistake to turn away from religions totally because their symbolism can tell us so much about our own internal order, humans tend to project onto the cosmos what they are inside. Our religious mythologyis rich in detail about our inner beings. It is not meaningless.

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