• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

I don't see how God could plausibly exist (Christian definition of God)

wildcat

New member
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
3,622
MBTI Type
INTP
I reject religion because of The Big Picture. The Big Picture, to me, is starting chronologically at the beginning of the Universe and working your way to this point in time, scientifically of course. (If there are any errors in the science please forgive me lol)

Singularity --> Big Bang due to high vaccum pressure --> Stars and Galaxies form over billions of years --> About 9 billion years into the Universe the Sun of our Solar System forms --> Very shortly after, the Earth forms (.05 billion years after) --> the bombardment of earth by asteroids, meteors, etc --> 0.14 to 1.84 billion years into Earth's existence, Abiogenesis brings primitive cells into existence (on its own, no help from God needed) --> For a few billion years these primitive cells become more complex and compete for survival --> transitional forms of cells arise, the transition being single-celled to multi-celled (no help from God needed) --> Multi-celled organisms arise and begin to spread and evolve --> Precambrian --> (okay this is taking a while and I think i'm making my point, i'll skip a bit) --> Homo Sapiens become a distict species in the Homo Genus (we arrived this way on our own, no help from God), also a few subspecies of Homo Sapiens come about but go extinct (they came after us but died out) --> Homo Sapiens spread from Africa to the rest of the world --> We adapt differently to the environments of the world (had our species been isolated we would have branched off from each other, Asians, Caucasians, etc) --> Each culture has its own religious explanation for our origins --> (blah blah the idea is made)

Why, after all of this, does God decide, "hey, those homo sapiens over there are sinful and need to be moral according to my rules"? Why does God put himself in human form in some remote desert part of Earth to die for our sins that weren't committed (Adam and Eve never existed and never 'sinned' against God)? Why after all this time, with all these organisms over billions of years, does God decide that its about time for him to show himself? Why didn't he show himself to the other Highly-Conscious beings that existed in the Homo Genus? What about people that never hear the word of Jesus, are they forgiven for their imaginary sin, you would think that if he was a decent and intelligent God he would show himself to everyone at once to prove his existence? What happens to other organisms in general, when they die do they just cease to exist, saved from hell but exempt from heaven?

Why does God make a heaven and hell for us when the place that we go to is predetermined? God is Omnipotent, All-knowing, and Outside of Time itself, he would already know where we would go to by definition, we have no choice, people like me are doomed to eternal hellfire, do you understand? If we had a choice in what to believe, then the God wouldn't be God, because he wouldn't Know our every thought and what we would decide so that would make him Not All-knowing, A God that doesn't know everything isn't God. If God exists outside of Time, then our existence means nothing to him, the entire history of the Universe could be over in the snap of the finger to God, its like he would have a Tivo remote, he could rewind, pause, fast forward, skip to the end, everything predetermined by the show he was watching that he created, the Universe could exist for .00001 of a second to him, why would he care for a species that arose on earth for a fraction of existence in the history of the Universe. All of that makes no sense though, because the concept of Time is being applied to God! A God outside of Time cannot exist in this way, it is literally un-thinkable, our brains are wired to understand the concept of time, where there is no time it is non-existence to us, our consciousness makes up time, if the atoms in my body were scattered somewhere else in the Universe they would be indifferent to time's existence, they would interact with time but time wouldn't Mean anything to them. If God existed in his own sense of Time outside our Universe (whatever "outside our universe" may mean..) wouldn't he have to be physically comprised of something to exist? If God was Physically comprised of something, in a sense of time, would he be Outside our Universe? Wouldn't those things be applied to Our Universe?

I have yet to have any theist give me a plausible account for the existence of God. I have no reason to believe in God via personal experience. I have no reason to believe in God via the logic that is instilled in my consiousness, if I had a different thought process (different sense of logic) then maybe I would.







Edit: This is pretty much addressing Christianity exclusively.
Does the picture turn when you turn it around?
In your eyes only.
 

nomadic

mountain surfing
Joined
Jul 15, 2008
Messages
1,709
MBTI Type
enfp
Lol Occam's Razor. Don't you ever use that phrase again. Ever!

why?

The principle states that one should not make more assumptions than the minimum needed.

if u combine the most accepted theories for the history of genetic population migration backed up by the most modern genetic testing available, and the lack of evidence of macro evolution (micro evolution is def. possible though), archaeological evidence theories (solid facts) based on carbon date testing, then really you don't need any assumptions for this theory to hold.

Occam's Razor. Love it or leave it! LOL
 

sassafrassquatch

New member
Joined
Jul 20, 2007
Messages
961
You see the 11 planets around the Sun? one is the moon. Another is the 10th planet that NASA discovered 2 years ago.

tnos.jpg


Eris is about 2397km wide, Pluto is about 2306km wide, Earth's moon is 3474km wide and Mercury the smallest planet is 4879km wide. Eris is a little icy rock, the Planet X/Nibiru I heard described is about 4 times the size of the earth in a highly eliptical 3,600 year orbit around the sun. You can't even get your own crazy right.

According to occam's razor... then this theory has more validity than the 10th version of big bang theory.

But i understand, u want to hold on to your community of mainstream science security. u don't want to be alone... interesting? isn't it? life is a circle in more ways than one.

shipment-of-fail-1.jpg
 

nomadic

mountain surfing
Joined
Jul 15, 2008
Messages
1,709
MBTI Type
enfp
^ That was so anticlimactic.

I heard described is about 4 times the size of the earth in a highly eliptical 3,600 year orbit around the sun.

If you look carefully at the Sumerian tablet from 5000 years ago, you can see that Nibiru is about the same size as Pluto.

Heresay vs. Sumerian Tablet. I would have to say Sumerian tablet wins by way of Occam's Razor.

Can anyone else think of a better way Sumerians knew? Except for their own explanation? vs. Your explanation? Try to make less assumptions than the Sumerian theory if you can.

Btw, at this point the smartest move is to formalize an industrywide divorce of interdisciplinary theory building from the archaeological community. LOL ;) Lets not try to sit here and argue that science academia is free of politics. There is absolutely no scientific basis to reject the Sumerian theory. Especially given its consistency with population migration and genetic history. In the end, it just sounds too crazy, and mainstream science doesn't want to look crazy. LOL
 

sassafrassquatch

New member
Joined
Jul 20, 2007
Messages
961
If you look carefully at the Sumerian tablet from 5000 years ago, you can see that Nibiru is about the same size as Pluto.

Dude, they're little bumps on a little tablet. Scale? Pfft, no.

Heresay vs. Sumerian Tablet. I would have to say Sumerian tablet wins by way of Occam's Razor.

No. You're doing it wrong.

Can anyone else think of a better way Sumerians knew? Except for their own explanation? vs. Your explanation? Try to make less assumptions than the Sumerian theory if you can.

Knew what? Eris is not a planet, it is a tiny, icy, wannabe planetoid.

Btw, at this point the smartest move is to formalize an industrywide divorce of interdisciplinary theory building from the archaeological community. LOL ;)

Uh, yeah. Whatever.

To summarize my point: STFU n00b!
 

nomadic

mountain surfing
Joined
Jul 15, 2008
Messages
1,709
MBTI Type
enfp
^ hey, i can tell i got u riled up man.

that happens when u have to take disbelief at science. im not trying to make u into a bad person here btw.
 

nomadic

mountain surfing
Joined
Jul 15, 2008
Messages
1,709
MBTI Type
enfp
^ anti climactic again. -_-

dood. its not like i was trying to purposely make u feel like u were vacummed inside ur head. i mean, isn't it just better to ignore the thread from the beginning?
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,192
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
There are several versions (in different cultures, christian and not) of ancient literature speaking of "the two ways." One way (the good way) leads to well-being and wholeness (for us and others)...and the other (the bad way) is less functional and leads to harm of ourselves and others. The dynamics of these "two ways" has been observed playing out over and over since ancient times...and there is real wisdom here. The teachings of Jesus was strongly aligned with "the good way." The good way creates, and enables persons to live in the dignity and inner freedom that is our right. I think/hope people follow the christian God basically because of Jesus' teachings. That so few really do this very well is sad on many levels.

Since I haven't seen many atheists going out and murdering and commiting crimes, I'm pretty sure this is unrelated to religon or the teachings of Jesus.

I think Christianity has endured because the core positive stuff aligns with psychological and social maturity IRL. Any religion that endures, I think, unless the faith has a virtual stranglehold on the culture (and eventually this creates a "purge" period where the religion will be cast aside), is creating some sort of real positive impact on its adherents.

Then, when people follow the basic "good" tenets and find something very positive (honestly, there are many people who do "come to Jesus" and have good changes in character because of it), they assume the rest must be true as well... because it had such a positive effect in their lives.

However, this is a logical fallacy because it gets exclusive. Just because something worked in Christianity doesn't mean it's exclusively correct or that all the specifics of the faith are accurate as well or that other beliefs can't offer the same sort of positive growth, depending on what they are.

I'm currently battling with my mom on a number of things and it all falls into this same boat. The good stuff in her life as a child and even now has been presented to her and viewed by her as part of her "Christian faith" rather than as something separate, so that's how it is all linked in her mind. The good stuff has validity; thus Christianity is valid as well; and to change her beliefs would repudiate the good stuff in her life.

It's hard to deal with. Many people want closure and just can't or won't see beyond their own framework if it has worked for them

You see the 11 planets around the Sun? one is the moon. Another is the 10th planet that NASA discovered 2 years ago.

According to occam's razor... then this theory has more validity than the 10th version of big bang theory.

Based on the logical efficacy of Occam's Razor, I'm betting he usually opted for the beard.
 

Prototype

THREADKILLER
Joined
Apr 17, 2008
Messages
855
MBTI Type
Why?
Isn't it mind boggling?

A long time ago, some guy told people he was the son of God, they claimed he healed the sick, walked on water, turn water into wine...Blah...This man set up a fear factor that many follow, simply because they were/are naive enough to believe his story, which was never physically proven... I'm not condoning the disbelief of Jesus Christ. I think he did exist as a person, just not as lavish and extreme as many of you currently believe.

It's too God damn frustrating to watch people wilt away from holding onto the fear of Christs return. It's too fucking frustrating to watch people destroy their minds by diluting them with vile implications, and deliberately poisoning their living conscience.

What will it take to get people to understand?

I am the King of my own destiny and fate, not God.
I am the King of my domain, not God.
I am the one who deserves praise, not God.
I am, what I am, Not God.

We wage wars based on rotting dead waste that the planet is trying to cast down below, because it's toxic to her. We kill others because we are either too stupid to understand the value, and the significants behind our existence, or too blind and brainwashed to step outside of the light, to look back and see what is really being shone upon. We make up shallow excuses for why we are here, and claim that some higher being started it all... I started it, you started it...I'm going to finish it, and so are you...

We will never know the answer because we are trying too hard to figure out the question. Is it really as complicated as we make it out to be?... I seriously doubt it.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,192
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Isn't it mind boggling?

What? That you're dissing Jesus instead of just the fake convenient religion that sprang up around him?

It's too God damn frustrating to watch people wilt away from holding onto the fear of Christs return. It's too fucking frustrating to watch people destroy their minds by diluting them with vile implications, and deliberately poisoning their living conscience.

As the days and months go by, I slowly do find my acceptance of religion souring. Not because I don't see some value in it. But now I am getting to experience the full dregs of the negatives of it.

I didn't realize how fully people tend to abdicate their personal moral culpability by passing it off onto a set of doctrinal statements. ("I don't get a choice," for example, "You did something bad, so now I need to do this to YOU... cuz that's what my priest / holy book says.")

And how they would prefer, instead of engaging a situation personally and figuring out what the BEST solution to a situation is, to simply apply a list of standards that in some ways they don't really understand but want to believe are true. Always at the expense of the people they are judging.

Funny that I have been a proponent of religion all my life and would defend believers... and now having been on the 'chewing' end of things for some time, find myself being more of an advocate of free thought and personal responsibility and I see religion as more and more destructive to relationship.

The most spiritual people i know just take the concepts of their faith and take the personal responsibility to apply them to the situation, rather than cramming the situation into their belief structure. And where there is ambiguity, instead of dumping the heat on the other person, they choose to suffer themselves and take it on themselves to love and not force closure even if they want it.

That is the bummer about religion. Too often the distress of facing ambiguity in life is dumped on the shoulders of the other person rather than being born by the believer.
 

Prototype

THREADKILLER
Joined
Apr 17, 2008
Messages
855
MBTI Type
Why?
What? That you're dissing Jesus instead of just the fake convenient religion that sprang up around him?

I'm sure Jesus was a good man, and he was nothing more than a simple one, one who wasn't fit for that eras mentality, and their mis-understanding of life, and everything within it. Through out history many people were considered to be ahead of their time. According to the "book", what separates Jesus from those people is that he was ahead of OUR time.

Times have changed because peoples minds have changed, and they always will. But seriously, if someone from our modern time claimed to be the returning son of God, they would either be deemed as insane, or foolish. All the while, the non-believers(believers of Christ, Vatican...Etc)of this individual ignore the claimed promise Christ made in regards to his biblical return... People need to snap out of it.

IMO, he will never return, because he ceases to exist, just like how we won't when we are done. Religion creates the illusion, it imposes the ridiculous idea of immortality, and so on.... all for one simple reason... We are all afraid of the answer, which is only revealed in the ever lasting darkness that awaits us at the end!
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,192
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I'm sure Jesus was a good man, and he was nothing more than a simple one, one who wasn't fit for that eras mentality, and their mis-understanding of life, and everything within it. Through out history many people were considered to be ahead of their time. According to the "book", what separates Jesus from those people is that he was ahead of OUR time.

Times have changed because peoples minds have changed, and they always will. But seriously, if someone from our modern time claimed to be the returning son of God, they would either be deemed as insane, or foolish. All the while, the non-believers(believers of Christ, Vatican...Etc)of this individual ignore the claimed promise Christ made in regards to his biblical return... People need to snap out of it.

IMO, he will never return, because he ceases to exist, just like how we won't when we are done. Religion creates the illusion, it imposes the ridiculous idea of immortality, and so on.... all for one simple reason... We are all afraid of the answer, which is only revealed in the ever lasting darkness that awaits us at the end!

"I'm sure Jesus was a good man..." [and so on]

You are? How do you know this? Other than by assumption?

Honestly, you seem to operate on the same amount of supposition that the people you disagree with operate on; you just happen to be highly skeptical, they happen to be overly accepting.

I don't see any more "evidence" being offered here than for the other side. Which is why I'm mostly agnostic on this. Both sides seem to operate on conviction, not evidence. And frankly we won't get much evidence.
 

millerm277

New member
Joined
Feb 1, 2008
Messages
978
MBTI Type
ISTP
IMO, he will never return, because he ceases to exist, just like how we won't when we are done. Religion creates the illusion, it imposes the ridiculous idea of immortality, and so on.... all for one simple reason... We are all afraid of the answer, which is only revealed in the ever lasting darkness that awaits us at the end!

That's why it still exists, people are willing to believe in it because they don't like the much more likely possibility that when we die, we just cease to exist, like everything else, instead of going to some magical place.
 

Prototype

THREADKILLER
Joined
Apr 17, 2008
Messages
855
MBTI Type
Why?
"I'm sure Jesus was a good man..." [and so on]

You are? How do you know this? Other than by assumption?

Would you consider anything else otherwise? Should he have not of been a good man?... What are you assuming?
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,192
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Would you consider anything else otherwise? Should he have not of been a good man?... What are you assuming?

My point is: You're criticizing people for assuming things you don't believe to be true... based on your own assumptions and not presenting any form of real evidence to support them.

:doh:

So no, I try not to assume things -- OR, alternately, if I do assume something, I label it up front as an assumption (or provide some evidence) rather than treat it as more of a given than someone else's assumption.

Proper labeling of data. That's what I'm talking about.

That's why it still exists, people are willing to believe in it because they don't like the much more likely possibility that when we die, we just cease to exist, like everything else, instead of going to some magical place.

The desire to create a meta-narrative is really strong in human beings. We want our lives to tell a story. And we don't want things to happen "without a purpose." Without the narrative, often people also have trouble hoping for anything good. So it seems pretty understandable. But it leads to some assumptions that could be very incorrect.

I'll contribute that when I was younger I thought existentialists were stupid: There was a basic assertion that life had no meaning, so therefore one could create meaning for oneself and live a noble life anyway. Still, who on earth could find hope and value in living a life that made no sense?

But at some point I turned the corner and realized it takes more inner character (I think) to live according to values you can't prove to someone else than to live a life that you can justify in some way to others. You do things because you believe in them and find them worth giving yourself for, not because you're forced into it by something external. The choice to live well under the unavoidable possibility that none of it might be real is actually a sign of character.

[I think it is easy for religious people, despite claiming "faith" as the core of their beliefs, to actually allow external forces to dictate their choices to them. It's not really character; it's an abdication of responsibility and morally lazy in some ways.]
 

IlyaK1986

New member
Joined
Aug 13, 2008
Messages
481
MBTI Type
ENTJ
That's why it still exists, people are willing to believe in it because they don't like the much more likely possibility that when we die, we just cease to exist, like everything else, instead of going to some magical place.

How do you know we cease to exist? Who are you to say what happens to us when we die? Have you been dead? How do you know there isn't a heaven?
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,192
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
How do you know we cease to exist? Who are you to say what happens to us when we die? Have you been dead? How do you know there isn't a heaven?

I got an e-mail from a dead guy yesterday.
Heaven uses Comcast, hell uses Verizon DSL.

(Needless to say, all the turtles want to live in hell.)
 

Night

Boring old fossil
Joined
Nov 2, 2007
Messages
4,755
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5/8
I'm sure Jesus was a good man, and he was nothing more than a simple one, one who wasn't fit for that eras mentality, and their mis-understanding of life, and everything within it. Through out history many people were considered to be ahead of their time. According to the "book", what separates Jesus from those people is that he was ahead of OUR time.

Times have changed because peoples minds have changed, and they always will. But seriously, if someone from our modern time claimed to be the returning son of God, they would either be deemed as insane, or foolish. All the while, the non-believers(believers of Christ, Vatican...Etc)of this individual ignore the claimed promise Christ made in regards to his biblical return... People need to snap out of it.

IMO, he will never return, because he ceases to exist, just like how we won't when we are done. Religion creates the illusion, it imposes the ridiculous idea of immortality, and so on.... all for one simple reason... We are all afraid of the answer, which is only revealed in the ever lasting darkness that awaits us at the end!

This post is largely incoherent.

I've highlighted the points that are the least decipherable. Can you offer clarification on (any of) them?



In your first paragraph, you mention "good" as an ideal and insinuate it against popular mentality. How did you come to this conclusion?

Your second paragraph states that, "people's minds change". What exactly does that mean? Are you referring to the transitional effects of non-literature to literate culture...?

Your last sentence is likely your strangest. How did you possibly develop such an absolute conclusion, being presently alive?
 
Top