I don't see how God could plausibly exist (Christian definition of God)

[Nicodemus]

Which presupposes the existence of time doesnt it? Without sun, moon, stars or any other reference point is there such a thing as time? You sure cant track its passage, the question itself lends itself to all kinds of anthropomorphic mistakes.

And what does that tell us?

 

[Fluffywolf]

Whoever said that time is an existing object of reality? Ofcourse it's not.

If I buy a couch that is 2 meters long, and I said, I have a couch that is two meters long, I don't claim to say that somewhere in existance there are two actual meters, do I? Same with time. If I wait fifteen minuters. It doesn't mean that there are fifteen actual minutes lying on someones dresser somewhere in the world.

There is only the present and movement, and because of movement, there is merely the suggestion of both the past and the future. Where something comes from and where it is going. But in reality, whatever is being moved will always exist exclusively in the present.

I would go as far as saying God is similar to time in this regard. But I make it a rule not to go discussing the validity of something that can never be , and has never been, proven.

 

[Lark]

But I make it a rule not to go discussing the validity of something that can never be , and has never been, proven.

You cant discuss a lot then. I'll look out for your threads though.

 

[MoneyTick]

Not knowing the answer doesn't prove that there's a god involved!

And how do you define "God"?

What if I define Him as the abundant energy and director of natural order in the universe?

Because a bacteria can't understand that the world revolved around the sun, does it mean that there's a god changing the environment from day to night?

Sure. The solar system is constantly changing due to gravity. So who ordains gravity?

So they are, if not the same, equivalent levels of silliness.

Is that true, or just what you're telling yourself?

If I told a USSR Communist that his political doctrine was a liability to humanity, I can ascertain that he would disagree.

If I told a South Carolina slave-driving farmer back in the 1900s that one day the United States would have a black president, he would probably think it was all silliness.

A black president? It would have been an extremely humorous dinner-table joke at the time.

Did you ever put your faith or lack thereof to the test? Or do you only theorize on the matters which are most likely to corroborate you personal beliefs?

I think this book may provide a more objective perspective on the matter:

And obviously, if the title looses your interest - you are too biased to have any credibility.

An objective atheist should be eager to read the book and put his/her belief to the test, not corroborate it further.

 

[guesswho]

The world's most notorious atheist is an attention whore.
By changing his belief he'll sell more, I don't think that's objective, since he gains something. He might as well change his sex too, Antonia sounds nice.

There is really no point in trying to change other people's religious views , that's my conclusion.

Also I don't think the christian God can be defined as "energy", since he already 'spoke', but he didn't define himself he just told us what we shouldn't do.
Since the bible doesn't define him as energy, you are not allowed to define him as energy or any high tech definition.
And why is he white anyway? Because white people invented this specific religion?

What does god do all day? According to the bible he just created everything ...like really fast and that.s it. Of course the people who wrote the bible didn't have an idea how old the universe is, they thought the earth is flat.


I think it is simply WRONG to claim to know how everything started. Of course there's nothing wrong with having a theory.. it's not the same as "knowing", when in fact we do not know.



We have no idea how everything started, what the initial cause/trigger was.

I choose to believe that, since it seems more valid. A simple answer. I don't know.

 

[Snuggletron]

a god is always supernatural, regardless of what god is in question.

supernatural
-----------------
natural

Everything you know falls under the natural category. A creator has to be above a part of nature to create it. If god creates all of nature, then that god is beyond all nature. If the creator can interact with or manifest within nature, it is pulled out of the supernatural and is considered natural, because it can be tested within reality in some form or another with some kind of instrument. If a creator cannot interact with or manifest within nature without becoming natural itself, then how does the god create it in the first place? Also, why should we care about this being that we can never by definition find evidence for? Why have faith in a square circle? What's wrong with the pieces we have so far, and natural explanations? Am I getting anywhere? Am I asking too many questions? Am I using too many question marks?

?

 

[A window to the soul]

The more interesting question is: What did god do 'all the time' before he created everything, including space and time?

I don't know. Someday.

God is the First and the Last. The Beginning and the End. The keeper of Creation and the Creator of all. The Architect of the universe and the Manager of all times. He always was, He always is, and He always will be...

Unmoved, Unchanged, Undefeated, and never undone.

 

[MoneyTick]

The world's most notorious atheist is an attention whore.
By changing his belief he'll sell more, I don't think that's objective, since he gains something. He might as well change his sex too, Antonia sounds nice.

There is really no point in trying to change other people's religious views , that's my conclusion.

Also I don't think the christian God can be defined as "energy", since he already 'spoke', but he didn't define himself he just told us what we shouldn't do.
Since the bible doesn't define him as energy, you are not allowed to define him as energy or any high tech definition.
And why is he white anyway? Because white people invented this specific religion?

What does god do all day? According to the bible he just created everything ...like really fast and that.s it. Of course the people who wrote the bible didn't have an idea how old the universe is, they thought the earth is flat.


I think it is simply WRONG to claim to know how everything started. Of course there's nothing wrong with having a theory.. it's not the same as "knowing", when in fact we do not know.



We have no idea how everything started, what the initial cause/trigger was.

I choose to believe that, since it seems more valid. A simple answer. I don't know.

Mr. Guesswho,

I concur.

This is the most credible post on this thread.

Albeit, I will openly admit that I am a Christian and I believe in God. However, you are correct - nobody knows for sure how the world was created.

As far as creationism vs evolution - both are credible. However, we can only theorize not jump to solid conclusions.

And yes, trying to make people change their beliefs is a waste of time. I've got tons of work and got to get back to it.

 

[Nicodemus]

If god created space and time, then he exists outside of space and time, wherefore he does not exist at all, because what we call existence - being in space and time, that is - does not apply to him.

 

[Zarathustra]

Well, that just requires a different understanding of existence, and possibly of space and time as well.

It's pretty easy for me to imagine alternate timelines and universes...

It's also easy for me to imagine a "central station" from which one could "watch" alternate timelines and universes: a meta-universe if you will.

If I were to imagine a God, I could imagine it "existing in" and "operating" from this kind of zone: from which all space and time would be visible.

Of course, I could imagine other possibilities as well...

 

[Nicodemus]

Well, that just requires a different understanding of existence, and possibly of space and time as well.

Exactly, a different one. I did not presume to convince anyone with sheer logic, because if the outcome is unwanted, you just need to re-interpret the problem. I merely wanted to share this thought.

 

[Sniffles]

I'm still reading this over, but this piece The Rationality of Christian Faith by Yves R. Simon may shed some light on the issue at hand.

 

[Nicodemus]

I will wait for the relevant parts to be quoted.

 

[Mole]

Creationism and Islamism

As far as creationism vs evolution - both are credible.

The origin of species, which you call evolution, is a scientific fact, while creationism is silly nonsense.

And creationism now has strange bedfellows as the Islamists are adopting creationism as their own..

 

[Zarathustra]

The origin of species, which you call evolution, is a scientific fact, while creationism is silly nonsense.

Not if the point of Creation is considered the Big Bang.

And creationism now has strange bedfellows as the Islamists are adopting creationism as their own..

Since when were the Islamists not Creationists?

 

[Arthur Schopenhauer]

Not if the point of Creation is considered the Big Bang.

We're talking about the Biblical God, right?

 

[MoneyTick]

The origin of species, which you call evolution, is a scientific fact, while creationism is silly nonsense.

And creationism now has strange bedfellows as the Islamists are adopting creationism as their own..

Ohh boy, really?

I think you skipped out on reading the last couple of posts.

Did evolution here on earth start before the earth was formed?

Certainly, the Big Bang was the catalyst that created the earth.

But the Big Bang was a random event made possible by gravity, the elements found in a nebula, and time.

SO ... If God did not ordain the Big Bang - Who or what created existence, time, and space?

Did existence, time, and space create itself?

Did the distant stars create themselves out of nothing?

If I see a beautiful painting in an art gallery - is it fair to say that the painting did not have a painter? Did the painting create itself out of nothing?

I see a chemistry textbook on my shelf. Is it safe to say that my college chemistry textbook did not have a writer? Did the chemistry textbook write itself?

Please, don't confuse this with the Bible's version of creationism. The Bible's version of creationism does not jive well with scientific fact.

I am talking about the fact that there must have been a "higher power" that created the universe in the first place, or that directs the intricacies of its existence.

Evolution? WHAT?

Who cares about evolution? Evolution is a fairly recent phenomenon, creationism deals with the creation of the universe and subsequent events thereafter.

HENCE,

If the earth wasn't created FIRST, there WOULD BE NO evolution. Unless of course, evolution created the earth. In which case we would have to merge the two words "evolution" and "big bang," which would make no sense.

The creation of the universe comes FIRST, the development of cellular tissue and organisms comes SECOND (after the universe and earth were created).

Creationism deals with the former, evolution deals the the latter.

Thereto, you can't say creationism is "silly." Because evolution would be quite silly if the earth wasn't created in the first place.

If time, gravity and matter were not present to create the nebula that developed into the big bang, that slowly created the form of the earth, that slowly fostered the formation of cellular tissue and bacteria, that slowly evolved into us humans - we wouldn't even be here at all.

So the question isn't evolution, it's what do we do when science hits a brick wall and can't explain the unexplainable.

 

[Lark]

I assume that those who are suggesting that God cant plausibly exist dont believe in an after life or reincarnation or anything like that?

 

[Nicodemus]

 

[MoneyTick]

Documented evidence that there is life after death:

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research10.html

How about being dead in a hospital bed, the blood from your brain depleted, your lungs collapsed, your heart stopped beating - and you saw exactly how the doctors operated on your body for emergency surgery. Luckily, they were able to revive this woman, and later she remembered and recited every word the doctors spoke to the nurses, the exact incisions they made, and she even told the doctors at what time they were able to get her heart beating again because she was able to see the clock in the operating room.

Did any of you ever watch TAPS? Its a show on discovery that investigates and scientifically documents evidence of paranormal activity.

I've met some people that don't believe in this kind of stuff because they use science as the basis for their their beliefs.

If you are a scientifically orientated person, you would obviously concur with the notion that there is in fact a spiritual realm whereby "ghosts" and "spirits" manifest themselves in the real world.

If people don't believe in the real-world manifestation of spirits, then they must be either mentally challenged or lack the ability to fully comprehend simple scientifically documented evidence of which I presume we all here on Typology Central are capable of.

Thereto, I presume that if spirits and postmortem phenomenon are real - then there must be something that is spiritual in nature after death.