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I don't see how God could plausibly exist (Christian definition of God)

Nicodemus

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God allows evil, but where in the bible does it show that God created evil? From my understanding, "evil" is simply a detachment from God and I imagine it has a lot to do with choice.
Let me quote myself (because this whole thing has been discussed already): You cannot invent the game, the rules, the players and then blame them for crossing the finishing line.
 

KDude

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Evil is not a thing to be created. If anything, it's just a lack of goodness (or, replace goodness with whatever word that seems appropriate for your aesthetic. Civility, reason, decency, etc.).
 

Nicodemus

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Evil is not a thing to be created. If anything, it's just a lack of goodness (or, replace goodness with whatever word that seems appropriate for your aesthetic. Civility, reason, decency, etc.).
Then god created the universe or man so that they would be lacking in 'goodness'. He is all-knowing. He knew about the holocaust, too. It is, after all, his game. If he did not know, he is not all-knowing or not all-loving and, therefore, not god.
 

Zarathustra

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Let me quote myself (because this whole thing has been discussed already): You cannot invent the game, the rules, the players and then blame them for crossing the finishing line.
But if the rules leave room for choice, then even God wouldn't know where the finish line is...
 

Nicodemus

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But if the rules leave room for choice, then even God wouldn't know where that finish line is...
Then he is not all-knowing.

There is also no plausible reason for him to invent mice so erroneous that they have the capability to evoke his wrath - unless, of course, he is a passionate choleric (in which case he is not all-loving).
 

Zarathustra

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If you wish for your children to love you, do you afflict them with all manners of suffering?

:emot-emo:

Then he is not all-knowing.

A PARADOX!

Dissoi Logoi says, "He could know all possible decisions an individual will face in their life, and the effects of all possible outcomes of those decisions."

Easy-peasy.

There is also no plausible reason for him to invent mice so erroneous that they have the capability to evoke his wrath - unless, of course, he is a passionate choleric (in which case he is not all-loving).

Hmmm... I would say that she needs the comparisons.

[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGL1pnm5Bqo"]:headphne:[/YOUTUBE]
 

Yeonhee

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If you wish for your children to love you, do you afflict them with all manners of suffering? No, you nurture them and build them up.



How did evil come to be if not by gods own hand?

Something, that is not god, created itself?

From what I recall, man is free and chose to detach himself from God (If we are to assume that God represents all that is good.), which means it was 'self induced suffering'.

Again, where in the bible does it show God created evil? All that is given to us is that man was tempted and man chose to give in to his temptation. It's not exactly about placing a fruit in the Garden of Eden. The object itself wasn't evil, it was man's choice to go against God that was considered a sin.

In the end I can imagine you're thinking, "Well, then why bother?" in terms of what Aquinas was referring to, God bothered because he could only accept authentic love. After all, God is all that is true and good. God does not need us, but if we are to assume that God is all that is true and good, why should we assume he would accept anything less? (However, I guess this is resolved in the new testament?) In the case of Christianity, we inevitably end up returning to the issue of choice and God's love. In order to know love and to love, you must first be conscious of this idea of love. Second, you must choose to believe and live by it. "Evil" is when Man, who is free, does not wish to be with God or know God (all that is good). If we consider evil as not some 'independent' thing that exists outside of Man, who taunts and haunts mankind, instead understanding the nature of freedom and choice we have with God, then perhaps things will start to make sense.

FYI: I'm not religious.
 

Yeonhee

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But if the rules leave room for choice, then even God wouldn't know where the finish line is...

Hm, I'm not sure about that. Let's say God does know (and the bible provides 'evidence' that God does indeed know.), why would this conflict with man's choice?
 

Zarathustra

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Hm, I'm not sure about that. Let's say God does know (and the bible provides 'evidence' that God does indeed know.), why would this conflict with man's choice?

It can't be a true choice if the answer is predetermined, and if God knows what is going to happen, then it has already been predetermined.

C'mon, what is this? 6th grade Bible school?

If you are actually interested, pick it up where someone else left it: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7514&p=1400798&viewfull=1#post1400798

I don't argue for another man's religion.
 

KDude

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Then god created the universe or man so that they would be lacking in 'goodness'. He is all-knowing. He knew about the holocaust, too. It is, after all, his game. If he did not know, he is not all-knowing or not all-loving and, therefore, not god.

I'm undecided (and never claimed yet) on God being all knowing or all loving, or if those are intrinsic features of a god.

One idea I have is that God used to be all knowing (heh) and was bored with that. Therefore he came up with the master plan of creating miniature gods who could defy him and introduce enough chaos to get in the way of predictable results. The only thing that could get in the way of his vision was another being with will and creative thought like himself ((albeit, in controlled areas of little consequence and plenty of built-in failsafes. I think he knew all about the Silver Surfer and Galactus. You don't give your sentient creations the power cosmic or anything like that. It'd just bite you in the ass.. but that's beside the point). As for all loving - in this model, I think he's only loving to those who aligned themselves with him. Those who eschewed their own petty universe and searched for his. This could be his true game - to set up a scenario where other beings looked for him of their own will. This way he has true friends. The amount of chaos resulting from this would be worth it for a being who would otherwise know everything.
 

Nicodemus

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I'm undecided (and never claimed yet) on God being all knowing or all loving, or if those are intrinsic features of a god.

One idea I have is that God used to be all knowing (heh) and was bored with that. Therefore he came up with the master plan of creating miniature gods who could defy him and introduce enough chaos to get in the way of predictable results. The only thing that could get in the way of his vision was another being with will and creative thought like himself ((albeit, in controlled areas of little consequence and plenty of built-in failsafes. I think he knew all about the Silver Surfer and Galactus. You don't give your sentient creations the power cosmic or anything like that. It'd just bite you in the ass.. but that's beside the point). As for all loving - in this model, I think he's only loving to those who aligned themselves with him. Those who eschewed their own petty universe and searched for his. This could be his true game - to set up a scenario where other beings looked for him of their own will. This way he has true friends. The amount of chaos resulting from this would be worth it for a being who would otherwise know everything.
Such a god would make more sense, but that is not the christian god, and I am not interested in arguing against your home-made version of another one.
 

KDude

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Such a god would make more sense, but that is not the christian god, and I am not interested in arguing against your home-made version of another one.

That's a fair point, but... The Christian God (or rather, the biblical god) strolls around the Garden of Eden asking, "Adam! Where are you?"; literally "regrets" his creation at one point, like it's a failed project, and decides to wipe it out with a flood - until he finds exactly the kind of "searcher" I mentioned above - Noah. It also speaks of a god who tests Abraham into killing his son - and right before Abraham does it, God sends an angel to stop him, with the message "Now I know you are a friend." This doesn't sound like an all knowing god exactly. Either that, or it's just stated that way for literary impact. Who knows. This goes without mentioning that Psalm 82 calls humans "gods", and further, Jesus himself quotes it in one of the gospels. The Christian worldview can be interpreted as one not all that different than my own. In fact, I'm kind of informed by it (among other things), so it's the other way around.
 

Nicodemus

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That's a fair point, but... The Christian God (or rather, the biblical god) strolls around the Garden of Eden asking, "Adam! Where are you?"; literally "regrets" his creation at one point, like it's a failed project, and decides to wipe it out with a flood - until he finds exactly the kind of "searcher" I mentioned above - Noah. It also speaks of a god who tests Abraham into killing his son - and right before Abraham does it, God sends an angel to stop him, with the message "Now I know you are a friend." This doesn't sound like an all knowing god exactly. Either that, or it's just stated that way for literary impact. Who knows. This goes without mentioning that Psalm 82 calls humans "gods", and further, Jesus himself quotes it in one of the gospels. The Christian worldview can be interpreted as one not all that different than my own. In fact, I'm kind of informed by it (among other things), so it's the other way around.
I am using the fairly common, theological definition of 'god' as the infinite, all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving being that created the world/universe. I could imagine it came up because the biblical god is too inconsistent for a useful definition. If I cared a little more, I might read the bible to confirm it.
 

Lark

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That's a fair point, but... The Christian God (or rather, the biblical god) strolls around the Garden of Eden asking, "Adam! Where are you?"; literally "regrets" his creation at one point, like it's a failed project, and decides to wipe it out with a flood - until he finds exactly the kind of "searcher" I mentioned above - Noah. It also speaks of a god who tests Abraham into killing his son - and right before Abraham does it, God sends an angel to stop him, with the message "Now I know you are a friend." This doesn't sound like an all knowing god exactly. Either that, or it's just stated that way for literary impact. Who knows. This goes without mentioning that Psalm 82 calls humans "gods", and further, Jesus himself quotes it in one of the gospels. The Christian worldview can be interpreted as one not all that different than my own. In fact, I'm kind of informed by it (among other things), so it's the other way around.

Not to split hairs but you just described a number of old testament stories involving God and described them as The Christian God, all those episodes where pre-Christ.
 
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