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  1. #741
    Senior Member MoneyTick's Avatar
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    That is how you know it's real. Unless you can think of a motivation for such a thing to exist and perpetually grow... who would support this? Think about how many millions of dollars it takes to run a political or commercial ad campaign and how long it lasts in pop culture... yet something which is essentially runs counter to man-made efforts with no visible proprietor continues on for thousands of years.
    This is the empirical observation I abide by. Especially the bold.

    Atheists claim that five thousand years of doctrine, reconciled by opposing religions (hence Moses and Abram in Islam, Judaism, and Christianity) have been fabricated for political/other purposes long ago. The Bible is the most widely read book in the world, just after The Diary of Anne Frank.

    Can Billions of people worldwide, including those that have lived and deceased centuries before - have defined their values and beliefs on a figment of the imagination devised long ago for ancient political/entertainment benefit?

    The argument does not satisfy me.
    got chaos?

  2. #742
    Senior Member Sanctus Iacobus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoneyTick View Post
    This is the empirical observation I abide by. Especially the bold.

    Atheists claim that five thousand years of doctrine, reconciled by opposing religions (hence Moses and Abram in Islam, Judaism, and Christianity) have been fabricated for political/other purposes long ago. The Bible is the most widely read book in the world, just after The Diary of Anne Frank.

    Can Billions of people worldwide, including those that have lived and deceased centuries before - have defined their values and beliefs on a figment of the imagination devised long ago for ancient political/entertainment benefit?

    The argument does not satisfy me.
    It is theoretically possible that could happen... however, considering that religion is "unto God", and Christianity is "unto Christ Jesus", one can assume that of the thiestic beliefs, all but Christianity suggest that every human is who Jesus was... that man=>God, as man is, do not pass Go do not collect $200. This is of course impossible, not only because there's more than one and hypothetically only one could be true, but also because there would be no difference between one person or another if this was in fact the nature of things, essentially negating the concept of religion altogether, which is the ascension of man to God (man=>God) which reeks of being a product of the original lie, which was, be like God without God's involvement.

    Only Christianity says that Jesus was this person, and that God had to reconcile us to Himself rather than the other way around. All the other views have a human-centrism, which is a nice way of saying pride or anything which begins apart from God. So again, what man would make this up? Who would think of that to such an extent to know this would be how God sees things? and if they did, why would they have God come to earth as Jesus? because apart from the knowledge that Jesus is God, Jesus was a very average person, yes, apart from who He actually was, all the miracles, etc.

    I cannot fathomably conceive anyone inventing that, there is nothing in the human nature to do so. If you do not believe this sentiment, then answer this question (to yourself, honestly): If you were God, how would you display yourself to your creation? Would you even do so? What would it look like? Would you come as one of them? Would you serve the people around you as, basically, a nobody? Would you wash the feet of the person who was gonna rat you out? Would you let your creation murder you? and would you come back to life to bring them all back with you for no reason other than that you loved them that much.

    In the words of Mark Driscoll, it's unthinkable to say Christianity is a religion, that Christianity is made-up. It's more unthinkable than coming home to find Bill Gates mowing your grass, Warren Buffett scrubbing out your toilet, and Obama doing dishes. You're like, "what's going on?" and they say "we're here to help! we're here to help. and you can murder us, bury us in the yard, and we'll come back in 3 days to finish the job." Yeah, the thing is, the unthinkable happened. God came to earth to serve mankind creation, to die because the first man and woman decided they didn't need God to live (and it turns out, they did) and then returned to life so that we could as well, solely through Him and our relationship with Him (i.e., not a bunch of religion. think of Jesus as someone who is totally awesome in every way, whatever hardship you've had, He's had it worse, and better yet he is a servant and a friend, better than anyone you know. He loves you in an unthinkable way. That's who God is.). and that's how we know it's real. It's unthinkable.

  3. #743
    Senior Member MoneyTick's Avatar
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    The Bible's scientific credibility is also astoundingly convincing. And, no I'm not referring to the metaphysical stories of angels, demons and Satan. The old testament Laws of Leviticus and Exodus provide disease control measures and quarantine protocols that were medically unfathomable at the time. I can post many, many examples upon request. Remember the story of David and Goliath? Here's something that came out this week:

    http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/...bles-bad-guys/

    "Archaeologists have found that the Philistine diet leaned heavily on grass pea lentils, an Aegean staple. Ancient bones discarded at the site show that they also ate pigs and dogs, unlike the neighboring Israelites, who deemed those animals unclean -- restrictions that still exist in Jewish dietary law."

    So we know that the Philistines, as mentioned in the Bible, were real ...

    "Diggers at Gath have also uncovered traces of a destruction of the city in the 9th century B.C., including a ditch and embankment built around the city by a besieging army -- still visible as a dark line running across the surrounding hills."

    ... And we know that the battles that the Bible cites between the Philistines and Israelites had factually transpired...

    "The hero Samson, who married a Philistine woman, skirmished with them repeatedly before being betrayed and taken, blinded and bound, to their temple at Gaza. There, the story goes, he broke free and shattered two support pillars, bringing the temple down and killing everyone inside, including himself. One intriguing find at Gath is the remains of a large structure, possibly a temple, with two pillars. Maeir has suggested that this might have been a known design element in Philistine temple architecture when it was written into the Samson story."

    ...And we know that the hallmark of their temples were in fact two large pillars.

    Diggers at Gath have also found shards preserving names similar to Goliath -- an Indo-European name, not a Semitic one of the kind that would have been used by the local Canaanites or Israelites. These finds show the Philistines indeed used such names and suggest that this detail, too, might be drawn from an accurate picture of their society."

    Hence, it is plausible to presume that someone named Goliath who was causing strife with the Isrealites did exist.

    "The findings at the site support the idea that the Goliath story faithfully reflects something of the geopolitical reality of the period, Maeir said -- the often violent interaction of the powerful Philistines of Gath with the kings of Jerusalem in the frontier zone between them."

    That was just a random article I picked out, and to my surprise - a reconciliation of Biblical history with recent archeological findings.
    got chaos?

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