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  1. #721
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoneyTick View Post
    I can invalidate your assertion by citing Leviticus chapter thirteen where God imposes unto the Isrealites the many laws which exclusively deal with the segregation of contagious diseases. Therein, it is explicitly mentioned multiple times that leopards were to be quarantined and forbidden to be exposed to the public.
    They segregated leopards?

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  2. #722
    Senior Member MoneyTick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    They segregated leopards?

    Thanks for catching that, I fixed the typo.
    got chaos?

  3. #723
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoneyTick View Post
    ...your beliefs are predicated on so many false premises that it would take a decade of vindication to ignite that spark of intellectual revival in your biased mind.
    What can I say, MoneyTick, you have publicly insulted me. You have publicly insulted me, even though it is against the rules and may lead to banning. So what I am I to do? Am I to insult you back? But no, I think your need to insult is greater than mine. I must have touched a nerve of yours, and your reflex is to insult. Rather your insult is precious as it reveals your inner mind, it reveals your emotions and your psychological defences. It is a precious insult and we shall keep it in our hearts just as Mary, the mother of Jesus, pondered all these things and kept them in her heart.

  4. #724
    Senior Member Helios's Avatar
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    Why does it always seem that the most religious people are also the most hostile, most ridiculous and those with most to prove?

  5. #725
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helios View Post
    Why does it always seem that the most religious people are also the most hostile, most ridiculous and those with most to prove?
    Why, because God is dead and they are in hysteric denial.

  6. #726
    Senior Member MoneyTick's Avatar
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    Being an agnostic, I presume that I can answer your questions most objectively.

    Why does it always seem that the most religious people are also the most hostile,
    Generally speaking, religious teachings are imposed on individuals at a very young age. These beliefs become engraved into a person's mentality, and henceforth become agents of one's identity and value system. As such, when you attack a person's religious beliefs, you are not only attacking a metaphysical opinion but their pillars of perceived truth. When such closely held beliefs become the object of one's criticism, requited hostility is the natural defense.

    most ridiculous
    Many things in this world deserve derision and mockery. There are African natives in the Republic of Congo who stick rods through their noses and dance to exotic beats as homages to their mysterious religious cults. Wandering from the foregoing illustration, uber-religious people (as in Jesus freaks) may not be able to reconcile their manner and beliefs with conventional ways and common sense. To an outsider, this may seem ridiculous.

    and those with most to prove?
    Albeit their eager attempts to vindicate their beliefs, they actually have the least to prove per se. The Bible, Torah and other religious books are not science journals but philosophical texts that explain supernatural phenomenon.

    Why, because God is dead and they are in hysteric denial.
    The existence of God is an empirical question that is entirely subjective. Whom is this "God" that you are referring to? Your bold claim lacks articulacy.

    I'll appeal to your sense of humor by citing Michel Henry's phenomenological definition of God where he states that: "God is Life, he is the essence of Life, or, if we prefer, the essence of Life is God ..." (I Am the Truth Toward a Philosophy of Christianity).

    He claims that God is the sum of all life and existence. Thereto, by the foregoing interpretation you are claiming that life is dead, and we don't exist.

    How absurd!

    Furthermore, the notorious philosopher Thomas Aquinas defines God as:

    ".... Now to take away the cause is to take away the effect. Therefore, if there be no first cause among efficient causes, there will be no ultimate, nor any intermediate, cause . . . therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name god." (Summa Theologica. Benziger Bros Inc, NY; 1947)

    It is reasonable to interpret his implication of there being a "first cause" as the big bang (or the prime mover of it).

    Therefore, in perceiving God through this prism, you would have to invalidate the big bang theory for your claim to have any authority.

    Edward Tryon also makes a good case for the existence of "uncaused" things, where it has been observed that subatomic particles can transpire and cease to exist randomly without a divine cause or external catalyst. If the big bang phenomenon was a random cosmic occurrence, without divine purpose, then it could be said that "randominity" is God.

    And since randominity can be defined as "a state of excessive chaotic, creative and whimsical energy," which is the state of the universe from a subatomic perspective, then the universe intrinsically is God - just what Michel Henry claimed decades ago.

    Moreover, can you cite scientific evidence as to the "death" of such a God? I would have to review the scientific basis of your claim before granting it any credence. I am eager to review your sources and abstract.

    To my knowledge, science has not yet rendered a detailed verdict as to what the big bang's catalyst was. The origins of matter, time, space and above all - natural law are the ultimate question marks in the realm of cosmic science and philosophy. It is unknown whether an "entity of higher power," a " supernatural cause" or a mere act of randomness had ordained the big bang. Anything outside of the intricacies of the big bang is a question mark.

    Anything beyond the question mark is (at present) scientifically unfathomable, and therefore hypothetical and open for ontological debate.

    You claim that you have found the ultimate answer to this millennial query! How wonderful, the golden key has finally fallen unto one's hand in this century's-old space. I regret casting doubt on your autocratic voice of truth.
    got chaos?

  7. #727
    Senior Member Helios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoneyTick View Post
    Being an agnostic, I presume that I can answer your questions most objectively.
    I'm not so sure that's the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoneyTick View Post
    Generally speaking, religious teachings are imposed unto individuals at a very young age. These beliefs become engraved into a person's mentality, and henceforth become agents of one's identity and value system. As such, when you attack a person's religious beliefs, you are not only attacking a metaphysical opinion but their pillars of perceived truth. When such closely held beliefs become the object of one's incitement, requited hostility is the natural defense.
    "Unto" is rather archaic, and is not being used correctly. Your explanation here is trite and unnecessary.

    "Incite" is also being used incorrectly.


    Quote Originally Posted by MoneyTick View Post
    Many things in this world deserve derision and mockery.
    I wholeheartedly agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoneyTick View Post
    There are African natives in the Republic of Congo who stick rods through their noses and dance to exotic beats as homages to their mysterious religious cults. Uber-religious people may not be able to reconcile their manner and beliefs with conventional ways and common sense. To an outsider, this may seem ridiculous.
    It's not them I was calling ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoneyTick View Post
    Albeit their eager attempts, they actually have the least to prove per se. The Bible, Torah and other religious books are not science journals but philosophical texts that explain supernatural phenomenon.
    "Supernatural phenomena" strike me as things which are in need of much justification. Again, however, you've not quite understood what my post was getting at.

    "Albeit" is being used incorrectly.

  8. #728
    Senior Member MoneyTick's Avatar
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    I tender my thanks to your careful eye for catching the minor errors. I've fixed the typos; please advise if there are any more.

    It's not them I was calling ridiculous.
    ^Revised.

    Again, however, you've not quite understood what my post was getting at.
    It was a rhetorical question evoking the social atypicality of religion, answered literally.
    got chaos?

  9. #729
    Senior Member Sanctus Iacobus's Avatar
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    Religion is man-made. We know Christianity is true because it bears no marks of man in it's conception (no pun intended). If you don't believe me, then consider who you are and every person you've ever known and ever heard of, then imagine what reality would look like if that person was God. Nobody would invent Christianity. Nobody would. There's no reason to as far as we're concerned, but as far as God's concerned there was. It's not a religion, it's reality.

    The problem is most people don't really understand Christianity. Most people's idea of what Christianity is is actually the opposite of Christianity. All of these things focus on what people do and don't do, who people are, etc. This is how you know they're made-up by people. Christianity, however, is centered on Jesus Christ and how everything relates to Jesus. You might say, Jesus was a person, isn't that ironic. Yes He was, but He was also God and in the same sense His life was entirely centered around relationship to God. This is why Jesus is a mediator between man and God.

    Faith is actually not some mystical voodoo spiritual feeling. One's faith is the nature of that person's agreement with God. "Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1)" This verse is often misunderstood... with knowledge of God's promise through Jesus Christ, one has an ability to be assured of the hope sought for which produces evidence despite that thing having yet to happen. Let's say you have faith that the Amtrak will arrive on time at 7:05... your faith produces a confidence in that event, and that confidence produces evidence because knowing it will be on time means you'll be sure to be there by 7:05, and sure enough your faith is the reason you'll be riding the train at 7:10. Unlike fallible things we're accustomed to, God is infallible. In fact, God is infallible unto Himself, i.e. we "swear to God", but God swears by Himself, He cannot lie and there is no deception or darkness in Him. This is why Jesus would tell people "your faith has made you well"... He was not saying their mystical voodoo feeling is what cured them, no, God cured them... however, He was informing them that as far as their participation in the matter is concerned, it was their agreement to God's ability which allowed the healing to occur.

    So religion and any form of "Christian religion" is based on faith in man-kind and we know this is fake because we know a person made it up. Actually, Satan made it up in the Garden of Eden and Eve believed it. The lie is that man can become good and/or like God without having a relationship with God by knowing good from evil. God said this would kill us, Satan called God a liar and we believed Satan. Sure enough, this even caused shame which caused man to have a tendency to hide from God, and as God is the creator and source of life, man fell into mortality. True Christianity is about faith in God and puts absolutely no confidence in our physical nature. That is how you know it's real. Unless you can think of a motivation for such a thing to exist and perpetually grow... who would support this? Think about how many millions of dollars it takes to run a political or commercial ad campaign and how long it lasts in pop culture... yet something which is essentially runs counter to man-made efforts with no visible proprietor continues on for thousands of years. Also consider that unlike the fairy-tale notion that everything in life is logical which leaves out quite a bit of our existence as we know out, Christianity does not skip anything and considers the reality of our nature, that we have a system of emotions as well as thoughts, the reason why this world is so messed up, etc. It's a lot more than a bunch of band-aid feelgoodery. And yet, people still think faith is stupid and putting total trusting in the 3 pounds of tissue between your ears is smart.

    Religion and man-made things is a bunch of bunk. Atheism isn't the opposite of Christianity, idolatry and man-made, "dead" gods are. It's all a lie and is built around the notion that we don't want to do what God wants us to do. It drives people away from God which is why Jesus was most harsh on the religious rulers of His day. The truth is, God made man for Himself so we're naturally designed to enjoy most what God wants as well... there is another disobedient nature that wars against this, but ultimately it is win-win, because we can trade anything for faith and have God's intentions which will, by design, be more enjoyable and fulfilling. It is not based on man's efforts, but on God's spirit working through us... to which we can experience what it means to have a worshipful relationship with your maker that leaves every other experience lacking in comparison. I can promise that if you ever experience that, you will love it.

  10. #730
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwn86 View Post
    True Christianity is about faith in God and puts absolutely no confidence in our physical nature. That is how you know it's real. Unless you can think of a motivation for such a thing to exist and perpetually grow... who would support this? Think about how many millions of dollars it takes to run a political or commercial ad campaign and how long it lasts in pop culture... yet something which is essentially runs counter to man-made efforts with no visible proprietor continues on for thousands of years.
    Good news for all the other religions as well, I guess.

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