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  1. #601
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Which presupposes the existence of time doesnt it? Without sun, moon, stars or any other reference point is there such a thing as time? You sure cant track its passage, the question itself lends itself to all kinds of anthropomorphic mistakes.
    And what does that tell us?

  2. #602
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Whoever said that time is an existing object of reality? Ofcourse it's not.

    If I buy a couch that is 2 meters long, and I said, I have a couch that is two meters long, I don't claim to say that somewhere in existance there are two actual meters, do I? Same with time. If I wait fifteen minuters. It doesn't mean that there are fifteen actual minutes lying on someones dresser somewhere in the world.

    There is only the present and movement, and because of movement, there is merely the suggestion of both the past and the future. Where something comes from and where it is going. But in reality, whatever is being moved will always exist exclusively in the present.

    I would go as far as saying God is similar to time in this regard. But I make it a rule not to go discussing the validity of something that can never be , and has never been, proven.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  3. #603
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    But I make it a rule not to go discussing the validity of something that can never be , and has never been, proven.
    You cant discuss a lot then. I'll look out for your threads though.

  4. #604
    Senior Member MoneyTick's Avatar
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    Not knowing the answer doesn't prove that there's a god involved!
    And how do you define "God"?

    What if I define Him as the abundant energy and director of natural order in the universe?

    Because a bacteria can't understand that the world revolved around the sun, does it mean that there's a god changing the environment from day to night?
    Sure. The solar system is constantly changing due to gravity. So who ordains gravity?

    So they are, if not the same, equivalent levels of silliness.
    Is that true, or just what you're telling yourself?

    If I told a USSR Communist that his political doctrine was a liability to humanity, I can ascertain that he would disagree.

    If I told a South Carolina slave-driving farmer back in the 1900s that one day the United States would have a black president, he would probably think it was all silliness.

    A black president? It would have been an extremely humorous dinner-table joke at the time.

    Did you ever put your faith or lack thereof to the test? Or do you only theorize on the matters which are most likely to corroborate you personal beliefs?

    I think this book may provide a more objective perspective on the matter:



    And obviously, if the title looses your interest - you are too biased to have any credibility.

    An objective atheist should be eager to read the book and put his/her belief to the test, not corroborate it further.
    got chaos?

  5. #605
    Senior Member guesswho's Avatar
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    The world's most notorious atheist is an attention whore.
    By changing his belief he'll sell more, I don't think that's objective, since he gains something. He might as well change his sex too, Antonia sounds nice.

    There is really no point in trying to change other people's religious views , that's my conclusion.

    Also I don't think the christian God can be defined as "energy", since he already 'spoke', but he didn't define himself he just told us what we shouldn't do.
    Since the bible doesn't define him as energy, you are not allowed to define him as energy or any high tech definition.
    And why is he white anyway? Because white people invented this specific religion?

    What does god do all day? According to the bible he just created everything ...like really fast and that.s it. Of course the people who wrote the bible didn't have an idea how old the universe is, they thought the earth is flat.


    I think it is simply WRONG to claim to know how everything started. Of course there's nothing wrong with having a theory.. it's not the same as "knowing", when in fact we do not know.



    We have no idea how everything started, what the initial cause/trigger was.

    I choose to believe that, since it seems more valid. A simple answer. I don't know.

  6. #606
    Reptilian Snuggletron's Avatar
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    a god is always supernatural, regardless of what god is in question.

    supernatural
    -----------------
    natural

    Everything you know falls under the natural category. A creator has to be above a part of nature to create it. If god creates all of nature, then that god is beyond all nature. If the creator can interact with or manifest within nature, it is pulled out of the supernatural and is considered natural, because it can be tested within reality in some form or another with some kind of instrument. If a creator cannot interact with or manifest within nature without becoming natural itself, then how does the god create it in the first place? Also, why should we care about this being that we can never by definition find evidence for? Why have faith in a square circle? What's wrong with the pieces we have so far, and natural explanations? Am I getting anywhere? Am I asking too many questions? Am I using too many question marks?

    ?

  7. #607
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    The more interesting question is: What did god do 'all the time' before he created everything, including space and time?
    I don't know. Someday.

    God is the First and the Last. The Beginning and the End. The keeper of Creation and the Creator of all. The Architect of the universe and the Manager of all times. He always was, He always is, and He always will be...

    Unmoved, Unchanged, Undefeated, and never undone.

  8. #608
    Senior Member MoneyTick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guesswho View Post
    The world's most notorious atheist is an attention whore.
    By changing his belief he'll sell more, I don't think that's objective, since he gains something. He might as well change his sex too, Antonia sounds nice.

    There is really no point in trying to change other people's religious views , that's my conclusion.

    Also I don't think the christian God can be defined as "energy", since he already 'spoke', but he didn't define himself he just told us what we shouldn't do.
    Since the bible doesn't define him as energy, you are not allowed to define him as energy or any high tech definition.
    And why is he white anyway? Because white people invented this specific religion?

    What does god do all day? According to the bible he just created everything ...like really fast and that.s it. Of course the people who wrote the bible didn't have an idea how old the universe is, they thought the earth is flat.


    I think it is simply WRONG to claim to know how everything started. Of course there's nothing wrong with having a theory.. it's not the same as "knowing", when in fact we do not know.



    We have no idea how everything started, what the initial cause/trigger was.

    I choose to believe that, since it seems more valid. A simple answer. I don't know.
    Mr. Guesswho,

    I concur.

    This is the most credible post on this thread.

    Albeit, I will openly admit that I am a Christian and I believe in God. However, you are correct - nobody knows for sure how the world was created.

    As far as creationism vs evolution - both are credible. However, we can only theorize not jump to solid conclusions.

    And yes, trying to make people change their beliefs is a waste of time. I've got tons of work and got to get back to it.
    got chaos?

  9. #609
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    If god created space and time, then he exists outside of space and time, wherefore he does not exist at all, because what we call existence - being in space and time, that is - does not apply to him.

  10. #610
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    Well, that just requires a different understanding of existence, and possibly of space and time as well.

    It's pretty easy for me to imagine alternate timelines and universes...

    It's also easy for me to imagine a "central station" from which one could "watch" alternate timelines and universes: a meta-universe if you will.

    If I were to imagine a God, I could imagine it "existing in" and "operating" from this kind of zone: from which all space and time would be visible.

    Of course, I could imagine other possibilities as well...


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