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  1. #581
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    For some people yeah but its never been an issue when it comes to my belief or doubt in either God or an afterlife.
    Yeah, me neither.

    It's just not a convincing argument, unless you really, really want it to be.

    Even Nicodemus, who is about the most obvious atheist on here, was willing to admit its simplistic.

    Kudos to him for being critically minded enough to realize and admit that, in light of his opinions on the broader question.

  2. #582
    Senior Member MoneyTick's Avatar
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    And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
    And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.”
    ETC....

    Thereto, according to biblical scripture:

    GOD NEVER MADE THE EARTH!

    He directed the intricacies of its formation.

    Do you really think God actually came down with a hammer and a chisel and began to carve out the shape of the earth? And did he pour a glass of his Holy Water over the trenches to make oceans? Do you really think it happened in seven days? No! The solar system formed by virtue of a nebula over the course of seven billion years.

    And what caused the Big Bang?

    Sure, a random series of events! But on whose premises?

    Who put that empty space there? Who placed that rock and hydrogen gas matter in those positions that would constitute the formation of a nebula?

    Certainly, the earth had to be formed before evolution! Correct?

    I think we are all confused about God. Because we refer mainly to him as a person or being. God is not such. God is a "higher power". Just like the sun - its more powerful than humanity.

    There is a lot of credible information about evolution.

    But why do I still believe in God?

    Because evolution would have never happened without the formation of the earth by virtue of the Big Bang.

    And who directed the Big Bang?

    Not my grandma, not me, not Ceasar, not King David ...

    A "higher power" was the director of such phenomenon.

    THEREAFTER,

    It is all subjective. Evolution, Biblical doctrine, etc...
    got chaos?

  3. #583
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    So this thread is basically about the problem of evil and the historical anthropomorphic conceptualisation of God?

    Just trying to bring things up to date for anyone just entering the tread now and not wanting to read over all the pages and pages of stuff.
    I guess it depends on each person's perspective. In my mind if God does exist, then He must be virtuous because people can do evil. But my view of virtue includes freedom (i.e. free will). If a person doesn't think freedom is virtuous then they might consider God to be evil.
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  4. #584
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    I guess it depends on each person's perspective. In my mind if God does exist, then He must be virtuous because people can do evil. But my view of virtue includes freedom (i.e. free will). If a person doesn't think freedom is virtuous then they might consider God to be evil.
    I would concur with that, although not perhaps the consideration of virtue, freedom and free will are abused concepts, or so I think, amount a lot of the time to licentiousness and permissiveness.

    However, given that free will, or at the very least a soft determinism, is an objective reality in the world it has to form some part of a divine plan if there is a God and he has one.

    The last time I thought seriously about this was reading Jung and he suggested that God and man in history had a kind of reciprocal relationship, ultimately amounting to the incarnation, from this I drew the conclusion that God realised the harm which divine intervention could do. So not that he regards freedom qua freedom as virtuous but that he rues the unintentional consequences of intervention.

    However more lately, reflecting upon a lot of the teachings of Jesus I think that Jesus that Gods plans, and very possibly frequent intervention, does not fit a covenent, contract or balance sheet of exchange with believers but is based upon a fairly radical hope of redemption and forgiveness of what evil action has happened. Which would be very unlike mankind. The thing about "why do earthquakes happen?" reasoning is that perhaps God cares about the earth as much as the people in it and intervenes on the level of entire eco-systems? And if this truly is the case, the horror and terror of ending life, if it is but a beginnning of life everlasting isnt something in the same order as evil actions if you see what I mean.

  5. #585
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColonelGadaafi View Post
    alright, but then again you have to remember the rule of relativity.
    Huh?

    I am saying that we are incapable of dismissing either position. Because we have no way of knowing whether either position constitute "truth". For people who are neither able nor have the time, resources or the motivation to devote themselves to disciplines rigorously practiced by skeptic's to pursue an answer to this question, it serves a basic need to retain their beliefs in a prime mover, no matter how absurd or irrational it may sound to atheist's.
    So skeptics should be less skeptical and believers should apply their faith moreso than they already do... Hmmm... No thanks.

    In any case, I believe that the god of this thread is a false one. A god may exist though, who knows.

    Adding more dimensions to a yet unsolvable question/-/Progress. You and i both know that movements antithetical to abrahamic theology have not come further then theologians to give a clear answer as to what constitutes a final truth.
    What's a final truth?

    please, don't go off-topic by adressing other issues.
    Ahahah! Moronic.
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    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  6. #586
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoneyTick View Post
    And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
    And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.”
    ETC....

    Thereto, according to biblical scripture:

    GOD NEVER MADE THE EARTH!

    He directed the intricacies of its formation.

    Do you really think God actually came down with a hammer and a chisel and began to carve out the shape of the earth? And did he pour a glass of his Holy Water over the trenches to make oceans? Do you really think it happened in seven days? No! The solar system formed by virtue of a nebula over the course of seven billion years.

    And what caused the Big Bang?

    Sure, a random series of events! But on whose premises?

    Who put that empty space there? Who placed that rock and hydrogen gas matter in those positions that would constitute the formation of a nebula?

    Certainly, the earth had to be formed before evolution! Correct?

    I think we are all confused about God. Because we refer mainly to him as a person or being. God is not such. God is a "higher power". Just like the sun - its more powerful than humanity.

    There is a lot of credible information about evolution.

    But why do I still believe in God?

    Because evolution would have never happened without the formation of the earth by virtue of the Big Bang.

    And who directed the Big Bang?

    Not my grandma, not me, not Ceasar, not King David ...

    A "higher power" was the director of such phenomenon.

    THEREAFTER,

    It is all subjective. Evolution, Biblical doctrine, etc...
    What. The. Fuck.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  7. #587
    Senior Member Robopop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoneyTick View Post
    Who placed that rock and hydrogen gas matter in those positions that would constitute the formation of a nebula?
    The material collected together because of gravity.

    And who directed the Big Bang?

    Not my grandma, not me, not Ceasar, not King David ...

    A "higher power" was the director of such phenomenon.
    This is essentially a god of the gaps argument.
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  8. #588
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robopop View Post
    This is essentially a god of the gaps argument.
    I would think it's more of the "first mover" argument.

    Or are you subsuming the "first mover" argument under the umbrella of the "god of the gaps" argument?

  9. #589
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoneyTick View Post
    And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
    And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.”
    ETC....

    Thereto, according to biblical scripture:

    GOD NEVER MADE THE EARTH!

    He directed the intricacies of its formation.

    Do you really think God actually came down with a hammer and a chisel and began to carve out the shape of the earth? And did he pour a glass of his Holy Water over the trenches to make oceans? Do you really think it happened in seven days? No! The solar system formed by virtue of a nebula over the course of seven billion years.

    And what caused the Big Bang?

    Sure, a random series of events! But on whose premises?

    Who put that empty space there? Who placed that rock and hydrogen gas matter in those positions that would constitute the formation of a nebula?

    Certainly, the earth had to be formed before evolution! Correct?

    I think we are all confused about God. Because we refer mainly to him as a person or being. God is not such. God is a "higher power". Just like the sun - its more powerful than humanity.

    There is a lot of credible information about evolution.

    But why do I still believe in God?

    Because evolution would have never happened without the formation of the earth by virtue of the Big Bang.

    And who directed the Big Bang?

    Not my grandma, not me, not Ceasar, not King David ...

    A "higher power" was the director of such phenomenon.

    THEREAFTER,

    It is all subjective. Evolution, Biblical doctrine, etc...
    I see your "who made the big bang" and raise you a "who made god?"
    -end of thread-

  10. #590
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I see your "who made the big bang" and raise you a "who made god?"
    And what would that achieve?

    Neither can explain origins but the idea of God is a transcendent and mysterious one so its more likely to satisfy plausibility, in so far as its expected to defy clarification or explanation, than an alternative.

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