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  1. #551
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Actually she doesn't win...but she did make me realize something. Her argument is that evil is a possible consequence of free will, but it doesn't necessitate evil. Essentially she's saying that evil is a creation of man, not god?

    Interesting...because in eating of the fruit of knowledge...that is, developing enough intellect to seperate ourselves from housecats and pigs...we (men) created the concept of evil to apply to perfectly natural things, like sex.

    Awesome. Thanks for inadvertantly pointing out just how much the Bible self-negates. It's as though the secret message in the Bible is, "HELLO HUMAN INTELLECT MADE ALL THIS UP." It's all there in chapter one.

    Suckers.
    Oh, I was being sarcastic when I said "you win."

    Free-will necessitates evil, not as an act, although evil actions are in some senses impossible not commit, but as an element of our existence. I don't know how she came to this conclusion about my sentences... I was trying to re-state that god created evil - which was the original point of our argument. Man did not create evil, he only selects the paths available to him.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  2. #552
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    But I am bored with this now.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  3. #553
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Schopenhauer View Post
    Oh, I was being sarcastic when I said "you win."

    Free-will necessitates evil, not as an act, although evil actions are in some senses impossible not commit, but as an element of our existence. I don't know how she came to this conclusion about my sentences... I was trying to re-state that god created evil - which was the original point of our argument. Man did not create evil, he only selects the paths available to him.
    I do understand what you are saying, but she does actually have an out on this one...

    One could suppose that God creates the possibility of evil, but it's still up to human choice to either commit it or not, and, thus, God's creation of the possibility of evil does not necessitate the existence of evil, but rather, it is human beings and their choices that cause evil to move from a possibility to a reality.

    She's still wrong on her point about God knowing what is going to happen but it not being predetermined, though. That's simply a contradiction. And not a particularly awe-inspiring paradoxical one, either. Just a plain old factual one that must be dealt with seriously by anyone contemplating the existence of God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Why would he do that?
    In light of the second sentence above, and the song I posted earlier: for the comparisons.

  4. #554
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I do understand what you are saying, but she does actually have an out on this one...

    One could suppose that God creates the possibility of evil, but it's still up to human choice to either commit it or not, and, thus, God's creation of the possibility of evil does not necessitate the existence of evil, but rather, it is human beings and their choices that cause evil to move from a possibility to a reality.
    I fail to see where my thinking has gone wrong.

    The 'out' is only an 'out' so long as you ignore the fact that god created free-will, as well as everything else.

    See: the bolded section of words.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  5. #555
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    A better method?
    Why doesn't god tell us what that better method is, if he cares anything about us?
    God has told us what the better method is. That is one reason that religion is universal. The real question is, "Why does anyone insist on using an inferior method, when superior methods obviously exist?"

    And if he is indifferent, why do we pray to him?
    The question is: does this god interact with ordinary matter? If yes, his effect is measurable. If not, he isn't different from any ghost, fairy or tachyon rider I can imagine...
    I could say that every measurement is measuring God's interaction with ordinary matter. However the problem would be differentiating these measurements from measurements which do not originate from God. Essentially this goes back to the original problem of trying to measure something which is infinite. I have already answered this question.

    I guess not all atheists are the same I don't agree with the assertion of "no free will". Actually, I think there is a big mistake in the reasoning you're quoting here. "I haven't observed any cause for it, so it can't exist"??? I haven't observed any cause for the universe. Do I really have to say now that the universe doesn't exist? Come on!
    No, my stance is simpler than that. "I have observed the universe so it exists." I haven't observed a cause for it, but that doesn't stop the universe from existing.
    You are right that free will clearly exists. Generally people still ask the question "why". The best explanation for the existence of free will is that it comes from God. However if you don't need to know "why" then that is certainly your choice. I admit that to me that seems strange coming from someone who talks about science so much. Isn't science greatly concerned with asking questions like "why"?

    The "causality argument" is actually an answer to theists. If you (theists) are allowed to believe there exists a god without needing a cause for that, I am allowed to believe there exists a universe without needing a cause.
    Things which exist outside the boundaries of time do not need a beginning. Everything else does. (As an aside: the popular scientific view nowadays is that the universe does have a cause.)

    I really didn't mean this to be cynical. If it sounds like that, my apologies.
    My point is: I lay the cause for religion in human nature, not in an external cause. Humans are quite similar all over the world (well we are of the same species!)
    If you're offended by the examples I gave, please look a bit closer to them. They aren't as silly as they look on first sight.
    The "sacrifice idea" has been (and still is) part of most religions. Incense, wine and water have taken the place of animal or human sacrifices, but the goal is the same. Make the powerful being (god, saint,...) happy in order that he doesn't destroy your crops/wreck your ship/...
    The "manure idea" probably sounds the silliest of all to some primitive human who doesn't know about fertilizer... but that one actually works. You can divide your field in two, add manure to one half and no manure to the other, and look which half of the crops grows the best.
    The "stirring idea" - maybe you haven't heard of this one and yes, than it sounds silly. It was not my intention. I myself have believed it for +/- ten years. I believed it because my mother told so. My mother was right about the cooking plate being hot and the knife being sharp. She has been right about that awful tasting liquid which made the pain in my throat go away. So I trusted her. At one point I forgot it and stirred both ways - it's quite natural for me to do so, as I'm ambidexterous and if one arm gets tired, I change hands. I remembered when the cake was in the oven - and it came out fine! Turned out my mother was wrong on that one...
    Ok, I misinterpreted your earlier post. If I understand you now correctly you see the purpose of religion as to explain the natural world. If this is true, then I would agree that there would be no point to religion anymore. Because the purpose of science is to explain the natural world, and it does a better job at it.

    And I can see where you might get this view from, because in ancient religions the priests were often the only scholars, so they performed all of the roles that a scholar should perform. Not only were they the scientists, but they were also historians and keepers of law. And they did not perform these functions separately, but they wholistically put them all together, because being a priest (or shaman or whatever you want to call it) naturally included all of these things so there was no reason to separate them out.

    However there are other functions that religion performs that are still important today.
    1) It helps people to understand their place in the world.
    2) It guides people toward living a wise life.
    3) It provides a way for people to deal with the fear of death.
    4) It helps people to connect with that which transcends the "here and now".

    And point #4 is really what we are discussing in this thread. Universally people have a need to connect with something "more" than we can readily observe. Something transcendent. I would say people have this need, because there really is something transcendent out there. But it could also be the case that people have this need for an entirely different reason. Either way I would say that it is foolish to ignore that this need exists.

    That is why I say it is important for each person to go out and look for God themselves. Even if they never find what they are looking for, we all have a need to look within us.
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  6. #556
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Schopenhauer View Post
    I fail to see where my thinking has gone wrong.
    Well, that tends to be the case with people who are wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Schopenhauer View Post
    The 'out' is only an 'out' so long as you ignore the fact that god created free-will, as well as everything else.
    Apparently you don't understand the idea of free will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Schopenhauer View Post
    See: the bolded section of words.
    That bolded section of words doesn't do anything for your argument, but, based on the above two quotations, I surmise it's because you don't seem to understand the concept of free will and its corollaries.

    Giving the God and free will argument the strongest possible position, one need only realize that God does not create evil as a reality, but only as a possibility.

    Human beings, by use of their free will to make a decision/choice, are the ones who decide/choose what possibility becomes a reality.

    As such, it is God that creates the possibility for evil, but it is human beings that create the reality of evil.

    Responsibility for evil, therefore, lies on the human beings who choose to make it a reality.

  7. #557
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Giving the God and free will argument the strongest possible position, one need only realize that God does not create evil as a reality, but only as a possibility.
    Incorrect, he has created it both as reality and possibility - both abstract and tangible.

    Human beings, by use of their free will to make a decision/choice, are the ones who decide/choose what possibility becomes a reality.
    Selectivity, a concept created by god, was given to humans by god and all possible outcomes that may result from these selective decisions are simply manifestations of what god has made capable of manifesting. In other words, it is impossible to do what has not been created by god, aka, what does not exist. Therefore we must agree that both the possibilty and reality of evil are devices entirely composed by god.

    As such, it is God that creates the possibility for evil, but it is human beings that create the reality of evil.

    Responsibility for evil, therefore, lies on the human beings who choose to make it a reality.
    No.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  8. #558
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Maintaining the concept that god exists, I will add this:

    It is obvious that our will is not entirely free. Only god is entirely free.

    We are limited by our nature - which was composed by god.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  9. #559
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Schopenhauer View Post
    Incorrect, he has created it both as reality and possibility - both abstract and tangible.
    Incorrect.

    He has created it only as a possibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Schopenhauer View Post
    Selectivity, a concept created by god, was given to humans by god and all possible outcomes that may result from these selective decisions are simply manifestations of what god has made capable of manifesting. In other words, it is impossible to do what has not been created by god, aka, what does not exist. Therefore we must agree that both the possibilty and reality of evil are devices entirely composed by god.
    Wrong.

    Free will is the God-given part human beings play in turning the possibilities of existence into the realities of existence.

    That part is out of God's hands and in human beings'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Schopenhauer View Post
    No.
    Yes.

    Nicodemus: it is because of examples like these that I did not give you the benefit of the doubt earlier... once again, I'm sorry for mistaking you in this way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Schopenhauer View Post
    It is obvious that our will is not entirely free. Only god is entirely free.

    We are limited by our nature - which was composed by god.
    I agree that we are not free of many things, in the sense that we are not all powerful beings with no limitations, but that does not mean that we are not free to respond in the way that we so choose to our situation and existence.

    The freedom is in our choice.

    The nature we are partially limited by also includes free will.

    If you want to succumb to the illusion that you have no freedom whatsoever, in order to deny your responsibility over your existence, go read some Foucault and be done with it.

  10. #560
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    He has created it only as a possibility.
    Are you merely playing or do you indeed believe that?

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