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  1. #541
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    That much is true, I am afraid.
    Haha yeah, our history teacher always used the whole lesson to explain offside in soccer if you asked for it .

    I let you big boys go on here alone, I dont get the feeling my opinion is really valued nor needed.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  2. #542
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MatsNorway View Post
    Im having a hard time believing in a God that does mistakes. A God that has to sacrifice a piece of himself to set things straight. But again, that might be our connection with him.

    And whats the appropriate punishment for eternal life in eden? There is none, any punishment is insignificant. He must forgive us, he must be. so then.. why did he not just say that we would be forgiven for fuck ups in the beginning?

    and so on, and so on i go.

    Just some of my thoughts.
    Yeah but wasnt that Satan's error?

    God created the angels which where perfect, then mankind, which where different, more perfect, apparently in some respects but less perfect in others and Satan totally had a fit about who was the favourite and mankind was a disappointment anyway because mankind was imperfect? Could be wrong though.

  3. #543
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    When I first read somebody mention the "problem of evil" on here I was very suprised to see the direction this conversation took, because my first association was not so much free will and the supposed independence of evil from an all benign divinity (though I once knew a guy working on his PhD in theology in Cambridge, a pious protestant, argue that the idea of the all loving farther was a naive NT idea and that he went with the OT version of a god that encompassed everything and was neither good nor evil, he just was. period. this is similar to the concept of a famous German theologian who sees the image of the hindu god Shiva as a necessary conceptual complement to understand the biblical god), it was earthquakes and babies dieing from horrible deseases, pain and suffering that was not caused by free will or distance from god but by chance. And so far I have never found a single convincing explanation from any believer. Just as an aside comment.

    Don´t get me wrong. I was raised as an atheist, but always had a lot of respect for believers as long as they don´t become aggressive missionaries. I never tried to convince a believer of my position as long as he or she left me in peace. When I was in my early twenties, I had something like a spiritual crises. I saw the benefits of faith, I knew the limits of logic. I talked to a several believers. Nothing. They were friendly and compassionate and wished me good luck. When I said I needed a burning bush because my head could not break through the wall of reason that stood between me and faith one guy said he had seen his burning bush after years of disbelieve and wished me mine. So far I haven´t seen it. A test desperate test prayer didn´t work, I just felt dishonest and alone. I did a lot of reading. And since I saw the path of logic and reasoning as the only solution in my case and I set my hopes and the already mentioned Thomas Aquinas, I started reading up on the arguments in favor. Since I wanted a monotheistic version but (at least for the moment) independence from christianity, I read Moses Mendelssohn´s Phaedon, Maimonides´s Guide for the Perplexed, etc. Nothing. Maybe I´m overestimating my reasoning skills, but I found fault with every single argument in their chain of reasoning. And not just them. It became too frustrating. I wanted to believe, I really wanted to, but my instinctual automatic reasoning approach just wouldn´t allow it and I couldn´t switch that off (and prefer the idea that there is a path through reason anyway). At some point I gave up and decided to call myself an agnostic in theory (i.e. the problem of prooving a negative) and an atheist in practice. I am highly skeptikal whenever I smell a hint of religion/spirituality/esoterics/you-name-it anywhere, but at the same time move with more respect than many believers when I enter a church.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  4. #544
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    ^I have enough "INTP" in me where I can identify with some of what you're saying. I'm bothered by a lot inconsistencies too. Unfortunately, I'm also like that guy you met who had his "burning bush" experience and couldn't help you. That said, I'm not sure a "burning bush" would help anyways. It hasn't in my case (and I don't want to get into the particulars).. Burning bushes are absurd. What it's done is made me ask more questions. Before that, I wasn't delving into the subject as much, and sometimes I wish I was that way again.

  5. #545
    Senior Member InsatiableCuriosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    ^I have enough "INTP" in me where I can identify with some of what you're saying. I'm bothered by a lot inconsistencies too. Unfortunately, I'm also like that guy you met who had his "burning bush" experience and couldn't help you. That said, I'm not sure a "burning bush" would help anyways. It hasn't in my case (and I don't want to get into the particulars).. Burning bushes are absurd. What it's done is made me ask more questions. Before that, I wasn't delving into the subject as much, and sometimes I wish I was that way again.
    I can identify with you there!!

    Each must come to their own conclusions and I am afraid that if I encounter anyone trying to ram their version of traditional dogma down my throat I cannot get away fast enough.

    What I find intriguing and very sad is the fact that most religions have fundamentally the same sets of rules and teachings, but dogma seems to have crept in and the true messages such as "love one another as yourself" seem to have been lost in the translation of self-righteous priggishness and exclusivity in most of the mainstream religions - and I don't mean just Christianity.

    That aside, sub-atomic electrical theory and the power of prayer in numbers taught by most major religions is even more intriguing, as is the natural application of the Golden Mean (Phi) as a fundamental principle of symmetry, balance and perception of beauty, from quantum sized objects to the shapes of the galaxies makes one wonder!
    "Study hard what interests you the most in the most undisciplined, irreverent and original manner possible."
    — Richard P. Feynman

    "Never tell a person a thing is impossible. G*d/the Universe may have been waiting all this time for someone ignorant enough of the impossibility to do just that thing."
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  6. #546
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    My perspective on the problem of evil is simply, "why is it a problem?" Natural and biological processes and laws have been put into place, and we're limited by these as part of our existence in this physical world.

    Everyone dies eventually. Is death evil? Most would say yes, but I think death is neutral. It's a simple part of life. Our emotional reaction to it is what makes it appear evil.

    Life is neutral too. What we do with it is what makes it good or evil.

    God is omnipotent, so much so that he has chosen to limit himself in what he can do.

  7. #547
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    i agree with your view on life and death, what I was referring to was pain and suffeing. Thatls sort of negative by definition.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
    A herring's blog
    Johari / Nohari

  8. #548
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InsatiableCuriosity View Post
    I can identify with you there!!

    Each must come to their own conclusions and I am afraid that if I encounter anyone trying to ram their version of traditional dogma down my throat I cannot get away fast enough.

    What I find intriguing and very sad is the fact that most religions have fundamentally the same sets of rules and teachings, but dogma seems to have crept in and the true messages such as "love one another as yourself" seem to have been lost in the translation of self-righteous priggishness and exclusivity in most of the mainstream religions - and I don't mean just Christianity.

    That aside, sub-atomic electrical theory and the power of prayer in numbers taught by most major religions is even more intriguing, as is the natural application of the Golden Mean (Phi) as a fundamental principle of symmetry, balance and perception of beauty, from quantum sized objects to the shapes of the galaxies makes one wonder!
    For me this makes interesting reading, it also reminds me of my own views or oft repeated opinions from when I was 17 through to about when I was 20 or 21, around about this time I think I was downright apologetic about my religious beliefs, too thoughtful, reflective and sceptical for many of the more dogmatic or "plain and simple" believers I knew and too credulous, traditionalist or religious for the non-believers but one thing I will say is that while I myself would say things such as "dogma seems to have crept in and the true messages such as "love one another as yourself" seem to have been lost in the translation of self-righteous priggishness and exclusivity in most of the mainstream religions" all the time it wasnt essentially true.

    I never actually met anyone who was that "priggish" or honoured "exclusivity", there are examples in the media or profiled by non-believers who resent belief some how, as there are the opposite, the more balanced equilibrium cases arent interesting enough or dont fufil the expectations.

    I only knew one individual who considered me, despite being a believer, and others who did not share their beliefs as condemned somehow, she, although she wouldnt have used the same precise words to describe herself, was a believer in the protestant ascendency and Lutheran evangelism, ie that practicing RCs where in error, that everyone should experience a very vaguely defined but personal revelation possibly on the back of a crisis about the live they had lived until that point. She may or may not be representative of her faith community but I do believe there's a lot of cultural factors there which perhaps dont travel, if they do then its a shame because there are plenty of sources, religious and other which provide a kind of generations of reflection upon that kind of thing which should be appraised. Ultimately I dont think its tenable at all, a lot of it I believe is founded upon the history, and in particular the personal histories of key individuals, before and during the reformation which I wouldnt expect every single individual to experience or have to experience.

    Its been attacked as sectarian by many but I give some credience to the views of RCC authorities which suggest that the protestant reformation unleashed forces which in turn provoked and gave rise to the more violent strains of athiest and secular protest as a reaction, I see a similar thing in more recent developments such as aggressive US Christian evangelism, in things like the alpha course, and its opposite number in the new athiesm.

    Personally, I myself, see much of what has gone into the rise and rise of US evangelism to be cultural in character, the controversies about science, origins, ideological battles with naturalists, I see as closely associated with traditions of mainly rural anti-intellectualism and a certain sort of skepticism. So I wouldnt consider it to be representative. In a way even if it where I wouldnt consider it a case that you had to conform to it or be in congruence with those things to engage in some truth finding of its sources and precepts.

  9. #549
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    God is omnipotent, so much so that he has chosen to limit himself in what he can do.
    This point is totally for the win when it comes to supposed problems of evil.

  10. #550
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    This point is totally for the win when it comes to supposed problems of evil.
    Why would he do that?

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