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  1. #521
    Member Yeonhee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    It can't be a true choice if the answer is predetermined, and if God knows what is going to happen, then it has already been predetermined.

    C'mon, what is this? 6th grade Bible school?



    I don't argue for another man's religion.
    God's foreknowledge does not entail necessity (because I know X, X will occur.), it remains only a logical possibility ("knowledge of everything that can be known") It does not coerce the event to occur. In this way, we are free by being free from coercion. Similarly, I can assume I know every logical possibility, but only one will remain true and the others false. I cannot change the future, but I can exercise my free will by changing what it could have been. Let's say I'm baking something, I can attempt to change how my baked cookies turn out, but I cannot change what it will be. It's a logical fallacy to assume that because I cannot change what will be, it cannot be changed from what it could be by my exercise of free will.

  2. #522
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Then I deduce that you do not consider simplistic thinking problematic?
    Your deduction is more of a wild assumption. The 'problem' can be solved by simple logic, so there is no need for complex thinking. Complex thinking comes into play if you are unwilling to accept the conclusion.

  3. #523
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Your deduction is more of a wild assumption. The 'problem' can be solved by simple logic, so there is need for complex thinking. Complex thinking comes into play if you are unwilling to accept the conclusion.
    The problem with the "Problem of Evil" is that it is based on assumptions, and it is simplistic thinking to believe that its assumptions are the assumptions that must be made when asking the question of whether or not there is a God.

    As such, since you do not find the problem problematic, one can only deduce that you do not find simplistic thinking problematic.

    The only other option would be that you do not understand why believing in the absolute primacy of its assumptions is simplistic thinking...

  4. #524
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yeonhee View Post
    God's foreknowledge does not entail necessity (because I know X, X will occur.), it remains only a logical possibility ("knowledge of everything that can be known") It does not coerce the event to occur. In this way, we are free by being free from coercion. Similarly, I can assume I know every logical possibility, but only one will remain true and the others false. I cannot change the future, but I can exercise my free will by changing what it could have been. Let's say I'm baking something, I can attempt to change how my baked cookies turn out, but I cannot change what it will be. It's a logical fallacy to assume that because I cannot change what will be, it cannot be changed from what it could be by my exercise of free will.
    You're wrong.

  5. #525
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yeonhee View Post
    From what I recall, man is free and chose to detach himself from God (If we are to assume that God represents all that is good.), which means it was 'self induced suffering'.
    I forgot the part where I personally chose to eat of the fruit. Oops.

    Again, where in the bible does it show God created evil? All that is given to us is that man was tempted and man chose to give in to his temptation. It's not exactly about placing a fruit in the Garden of Eden. The object itself wasn't evil, it was man's choice to go against God that was considered a sin.
    If god created free-will, then he must have created evil, as our definition of this specific free-will NECESSITATES the existence of evil.

    In the end I can imagine you're thinking, "Well, then why bother?" in terms of what Aquinas was referring to, God bothered because he could only accept authentic love. After all, God is all that is true and good. God does not need us, but if we are to assume that God is all that is true and good, why should we assume he would accept anything less? (However, I guess this is resolved in the new testament?) In the case of Christianity, we inevitably end up returning to the issue of choice and God's love. In order to know love and to love, you must first be conscious of this idea of love. Second, you must choose to believe and live by it. "Evil" is when Man, who is free, does not wish to be with God or know God (all that is good).
    Mmkay.

    If we consider evil as not some 'independent' thing that exists outside of Man, who taunts and haunts mankind, instead understanding the nature of freedom and choice we have with God, then perhaps things will start to make sense.

    FYI: I'm not religious.
    Mmm, no.

    IDC if you're religious or not.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  6. #526
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    The problem with the "Problem of Evil" is that it is based on assumptions, and it is simplistic thinking to believe that its assumptions are the assumptions that must be made when asking the question of whether or not there is a God.
    The problem is composed of certain premises, certain assumptions. If you do not accept them, you do not accept the problem. Of course they do not have to be made when asking whether the is a god...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    As such, since you do not find the problem problematic, one can only deduce that you do not find simplistic thinking problematic.
    But if you do accept the problem (which is indeed simplistic), then complex thinking is not necessary to solve it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    The only other option would be that you do not understand why believing in the absolute primacy of its assumptions is simplistic thinking...
    Are we going there already?

  7. #527
    Member Yeonhee's Avatar
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    I forgot the part where I personally chose to eat of the fruit. Oops.

    Fruit in the bible =/= Fruit in your backyard. It doesn't matter if you weren't the one that ate the fruit, it's the act of not being with God that is the point. Fuck.

    If god created free-will, then he must have created evil, as our definition of this specific free-will NECESSITATES the existence of evil.

    If you assume free will exists, then what is this nonsense about "necessity"? Free will allows evil to be a possible consequence, not a necessary consequence.

  8. #528
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    The problem is composed of certain premises, certain assumptions. If you do not accept them, you do not accept the problem.
    True, true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Of course they do not have to be made when asking whether the is a god...
    OK, well if this is your belief, then we have common ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    But if you do accept the problem (which is indeed simplistic), then complex thinking is not necessary to solve it.
    Agreed. On both counts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Are we going there already?
    Well, considering you were willing to admit that the Problem of Evil is indeed simplistic, apparently there's no need to go there.

    It was my mistake to not have given you the credit.

  9. #529
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    I sometimes say to a friend of mine that, when we disagree, it is most likely because of a misunderstanding of words. We disagree a lot.

  10. #530
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Not to split hairs but you just described a number of old testament stories involving God and described them as The Christian God, all those episodes where pre-Christ.
    Are you a Gnostic? It's the same tradition. It doesn't matter if it's pre-Christ. Christ was a Jew, preached to Jews, and used a lot of examples for Jews, by Jews, and about Jews. He referenced "old testament stories", including Abraham and Noah, and so did, say, Paul or the anonymous author of Hebrews well after Christ's death. They considered it part of their tradition - or rather, they saw Christ as a continuation. Only that he brought a new covenant. The only people who would make a big distinction between the OT God and Christ were Gnostics. Christians only make a distinction between the Torah and the Gospel.
    Last edited by KDude; 12-22-2010 at 12:42 AM. Reason: fixed quote

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