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  1. #511
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Then god created the universe or man so that they would be lacking in 'goodness'. He is all-knowing. He knew about the holocaust, too. It is, after all, his game. If he did not know, he is not all-knowing or not all-loving and, therefore, not god.
    I'm undecided (and never claimed yet) on God being all knowing or all loving, or if those are intrinsic features of a god.

    One idea I have is that God used to be all knowing (heh) and was bored with that. Therefore he came up with the master plan of creating miniature gods who could defy him and introduce enough chaos to get in the way of predictable results. The only thing that could get in the way of his vision was another being with will and creative thought like himself ((albeit, in controlled areas of little consequence and plenty of built-in failsafes. I think he knew all about the Silver Surfer and Galactus. You don't give your sentient creations the power cosmic or anything like that. It'd just bite you in the ass.. but that's beside the point). As for all loving - in this model, I think he's only loving to those who aligned themselves with him. Those who eschewed their own petty universe and searched for his. This could be his true game - to set up a scenario where other beings looked for him of their own will. This way he has true friends. The amount of chaos resulting from this would be worth it for a being who would otherwise know everything.

  2. #512
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I'm undecided (and never claimed yet) on God being all knowing or all loving, or if those are intrinsic features of a god.

    One idea I have is that God used to be all knowing (heh) and was bored with that. Therefore he came up with the master plan of creating miniature gods who could defy him and introduce enough chaos to get in the way of predictable results. The only thing that could get in the way of his vision was another being with will and creative thought like himself ((albeit, in controlled areas of little consequence and plenty of built-in failsafes. I think he knew all about the Silver Surfer and Galactus. You don't give your sentient creations the power cosmic or anything like that. It'd just bite you in the ass.. but that's beside the point). As for all loving - in this model, I think he's only loving to those who aligned themselves with him. Those who eschewed their own petty universe and searched for his. This could be his true game - to set up a scenario where other beings looked for him of their own will. This way he has true friends. The amount of chaos resulting from this would be worth it for a being who would otherwise know everything.
    Such a god would make more sense, but that is not the christian god, and I am not interested in arguing against your home-made version of another one.

  3. #513
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Such a god would make more sense, but that is not the christian god, and I am not interested in arguing against your home-made version of another one.
    That's a fair point, but... The Christian God (or rather, the biblical god) strolls around the Garden of Eden asking, "Adam! Where are you?"; literally "regrets" his creation at one point, like it's a failed project, and decides to wipe it out with a flood - until he finds exactly the kind of "searcher" I mentioned above - Noah. It also speaks of a god who tests Abraham into killing his son - and right before Abraham does it, God sends an angel to stop him, with the message "Now I know you are a friend." This doesn't sound like an all knowing god exactly. Either that, or it's just stated that way for literary impact. Who knows. This goes without mentioning that Psalm 82 calls humans "gods", and further, Jesus himself quotes it in one of the gospels. The Christian worldview can be interpreted as one not all that different than my own. In fact, I'm kind of informed by it (among other things), so it's the other way around.

  4. #514
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    That's a fair point, but... The Christian God (or rather, the biblical god) strolls around the Garden of Eden asking, "Adam! Where are you?"; literally "regrets" his creation at one point, like it's a failed project, and decides to wipe it out with a flood - until he finds exactly the kind of "searcher" I mentioned above - Noah. It also speaks of a god who tests Abraham into killing his son - and right before Abraham does it, God sends an angel to stop him, with the message "Now I know you are a friend." This doesn't sound like an all knowing god exactly. Either that, or it's just stated that way for literary impact. Who knows. This goes without mentioning that Psalm 82 calls humans "gods", and further, Jesus himself quotes it in one of the gospels. The Christian worldview can be interpreted as one not all that different than my own. In fact, I'm kind of informed by it (among other things), so it's the other way around.
    I am using the fairly common, theological definition of 'god' as the infinite, all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving being that created the world/universe. I could imagine it came up because the biblical god is too inconsistent for a useful definition. If I cared a little more, I might read the bible to confirm it.

  5. #515
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I am using the fairly common, theological definition of 'god' as the infinite, all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving being that created the world/universe.
    Oh yes, the whole "Problem of Evil" God...

  6. #516
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Oh yes, the whole "Problem of Evil" God...
    It is not really a problem if you are willing to accept the conclusion. ;)

  7. #517
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    It is not really a problem if you are willing to accept the conclusion.
    But it is a problem if you are willing to accept the assumptions...

  8. #518
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    No.

  9. #519
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    Then I deduce that you do not consider simplistic thinking problematic?

  10. #520
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    That's a fair point, but... The Christian God (or rather, the biblical god) strolls around the Garden of Eden asking, "Adam! Where are you?"; literally "regrets" his creation at one point, like it's a failed project, and decides to wipe it out with a flood - until he finds exactly the kind of "searcher" I mentioned above - Noah. It also speaks of a god who tests Abraham into killing his son - and right before Abraham does it, God sends an angel to stop him, with the message "Now I know you are a friend." This doesn't sound like an all knowing god exactly. Either that, or it's just stated that way for literary impact. Who knows. This goes without mentioning that Psalm 82 calls humans "gods", and further, Jesus himself quotes it in one of the gospels. The Christian worldview can be interpreted as one not all that different than my own. In fact, I'm kind of informed by it (among other things), so it's the other way around.
    Not to split hairs but you just described a number of old testament stories involving God and described them as The Christian God, all those episodes where pre-Christ.

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