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  1. #361
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Beefeater, how did you come to be a christian?

  2. #362
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Nicodemus is being consistent in some sense in that he continues to operate on the basis of what gives him pleasure and what does not. But, because this is biologically based and not principle based it inevitably leads to inconsistency between action and thought.

    The obvious example of hypocrisy is that atheists condemn christians for living lives based upon illusions, but even though they may believe that they are grounded in the truth atheists do not live lives in accordance to the natural workings of their beliefs. That is they do try to live with a sense of meaning and purpose even though they beliefs would make it quite obvious that there is no meaning or purpose to life.

    So unlike Christians atheists know that what they believe is an illusion created by themselves and yet persist in their fantasy of significance.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  3. #363
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Nicodemus is being consistent in some sense in that he continues to operate on the basis of what gives him pleasure and what does not. But, because this is biologically based and not principle based it inevitably leads to inconsistency between action and thought.

    The obvious example of hypocrisy is that atheists condemn christians for living lives based upon illusions, but even though they may believe that they are grounded in the truth atheists do not live lives in accordance to the natural workings of their beliefs. That is they do try to live with a sense of meaning and purpose even though they beliefs would make it quite obvious that there is no meaning or purpose to life.

    So unlike Christians atheists know that what they believe is an illusion created by themselves and yet persist in their fantasy of significance.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  4. #364
    Reptilian Snuggletron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    The obvious example of hypocrisy is that atheists condemn christians for living lives based upon illusions, but even though they may believe that they are grounded in the truth atheists do not live lives in accordance to the natural workings of their beliefs. That is they do try to live with a sense of meaning and purpose even though they beliefs would make it quite obvious that there is no meaning or purpose to life.

    So unlike Christians atheists know that what they believe is an illusion created by themselves and yet persist in their fantasy of significance.
    0/10

  5. #365
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    "If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents - the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for the thoughts of the materialists and astronomers as well as for anyone else's. But if their thoughts - i.e., Materialism and Astronomy - are mere accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true? I see no reason for believing that one accident should be able to give me a correct account of all the other accidents. It's like expecting the accidental shape taken by the splash when you upset a milk-jug should give you a correct account of how the jug was made and why it was upset." -C. S. Lewis (former athiest)

    "I was at this time of living, like so many Atheists or Anti-theists, in a whirl of contradictions. I maintained that God did not exist. I was also very angry with God for not existing. I was equally angry with Him for creating a world." -C. S. Lewis

    ...set out to prove God doesn't exist only to realize he does.

    From what I've observed, it seems like the healthier one is in conjunction with an above average IQ,... the greater the ability to let go of pride, doubts, fear... the greater the understanding and trust in God.

  6. #366
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    In case you have overlooked this important question:
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Beefeater, how did you come to be a christian?
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Nicodemus is being consistent in some sense in that he continues to operate on the basis of what gives him pleasure and what does not. But, because this is biologically based and not principle based it inevitably leads to inconsistency between action and thought.
    My principle is grounded in biological processes just as yours is grounded in the assumption of the existence of god. The grounds that virtually no one doubts are mine.

    There is, however, inconsistency in my life; for I believe it to be meaningless yet I am still here. If I were pure mind and thought, I would not be alive today, but there are more instinctive facets to the animals of this planet, so I continue living with the conflict of thought and instinct (or will) inside of me. Though even my feelings are meaningless, I still feel them, I still long rather for happiness than for sadness. Thus my maxim reads: Do what you want if you can.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    The obvious example of hypocrisy is that atheists condemn christians for living lives based upon illusions, but even though they may believe that they are grounded in the truth atheists do not live lives in accordance to the natural workings of their beliefs. That is they do try to live with a sense of meaning and purpose even though they beliefs would make it quite obvious that there is no meaning or purpose to life.
    I do not condemn children for believing in the tooth fairy and I do not condemn christians for believing in the lies their parents have told them. But I am not going to pretend that their beliefs were true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    So unlike Christians atheists know that what they believe is an illusion created by themselves and yet persist in their fantasy of significance.
    No one can believe their own lies. The illusions we live are the illusions we have not yet fully dismantled. God is not the most convincing illusion, he is just the most soothing one.

    Quote Originally Posted by perfectgirl View Post
    From what I've observed, it seems like the healthier one is in conjunction with an above average IQ,... the greater the ability to let go of pride, doubts, fear... the greater the understanding and trust in God.
    May I ask what your understanding of god is?

    C. S. Lewis, by the way, died a year before the discovery of the cosmic microwave background radiation.

  7. #367
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    C.S. Lewis is an amazing man, his books prompted me to convert to Christianity many years ago. It didn't stick, because I tried to read the Bible.

    Don't get me wrong, in spite of some very angry athiests say, Christianity has done a heck of lot of good for the world. And I'm really not against any type of belief, as long as it is sufficiently benign, which Christianity has the capability of being.

    But, it is utterly worthless for a Christian to try and argue the Bible. It is a very well known stance among them that the world was created in such a way that faith is necesary. What this means is that there is no logical connection between what the world is and the truth of Christianity. Not everyone agrees, of course, but the fact of the matter is God could've made 'truth' known in 1000 ft tall flaming letters that spoke it aloud in all languages of the world simultaneously. So, it goes to show that obscurity is at least part of the Christian God's agenda.

    So, how the hell does a good Christian convert others? Well, the Old Testament is not a helpful example. You can call forth flame in the sky in his name, or God will send a helpful messenger just to let you know. This wasn't important, he was the God of a tribe. The other people didnt really matter.

    The New Testament is interpreted to introduce the idea of the Holy Spirit. This type of spiritual transmission is not rooted in argument or logic, but some sort of deep connection where truth can be transmitted directly. Those who are evil reject the call.

    So, my advice to Christians. Do you want to make more of you? Just do good things in the Christian spirit, make your prayers, and don't argue on Internet forums, God doesn't want that.

  8. #368
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlippoth View Post
    C.S. Lewis is an amazing man, his books prompted me to convert to Christianity many years ago. It didn't stick, because I tried to read the Bible.

    Don't get me wrong, in spite of some very angry athiests say, Christianity has done a heck of lot of good for the world. And I'm really not against any type of belief, as long as it is sufficiently benign, which Christianity has the capability of being.

    But, it is utterly worthless for a Christian to try and argue the Bible. It is a very well known stance among them that the world was created in such a way that faith is necesary. What this means is that there is no logical connection between what the world is and the truth of Christianity. Not everyone agrees, of course, but the fact of the matter is God could've made 'truth' known in 1000 ft tall flaming letters that spoke it aloud in all languages of the world simultaneously. So, it goes to show that obscurity is at least part of the Christian God's agenda.

    So, how the hell does a good Christian convert others? Well, the Old Testament is not a helpful example. You can call forth flame in the sky in his name, or God will send a helpful messenger just to let you know. This wasn't important, he was the God of a tribe. The other people didnt really matter.

    The New Testament is interpreted to introduce the idea of the Holy Spirit. This type of spiritual transmission is not rooted in argument or logic, but some sort of deep connection where truth can be transmitted directly. Those who are evil reject the call.

    So, my advice to Christians. Do you want to make more of you? Just do good things in the Christian spirit, make your prayers, and don't argue on Internet forums, God doesn't want that.
    This may surprise you but I am a Christian, a Roman Catholic Christian (although some will consider that contradictory as a consequence of the literary trends and personalities growing out of the reformation tragedy) and I dont consider the bible to be that significant, why should it be more significant than CS Lewis? Both are books after all, what is important is tradition and a living faith, if faith is bound in a book then it is surely dead.

    I dont believe that God has created a world in which faith is intrinsic or necessary but it is a world in which faith is highly adaptive, you want to be happen then understand God and that life and the world are complete gifts, which I believe is the message of the old and new testaments, the life and ministry of Jesus was a final attempt to make this clear through God becoming incarnate as a man himself, the prophets had not been listened to or where misunderstood, so he came in person but it still was not clear to a lot of people and the rest is history.

    I've read the bible and scripture but never had this problem you speak of, perhaps it is to do with the expectation or way in which you approached the book? I know plenty of people who claim to be buddhists or have an affinity with buddhism who could not read The Light of The World for instance.

  9. #369
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    This may surprise you but I am a Christian, a Roman Catholic Christian (although some will consider that contradictory as a consequence of the literary trends and personalities growing out of the reformation tragedy) and I dont consider the bible to be that significant, why should it be more significant than CS Lewis? Both are books after all, what is important is tradition and a living faith, if faith is bound in a book then it is surely dead.

    I dont believe that God has created a world in which faith is intrinsic or necessary but it is a world in which faith is highly adaptive, you want to be happen then understand God and that life and the world are complete gifts, which I believe is the message of the old and new testaments, the life and ministry of Jesus was a final attempt to make this clear through God becoming incarnate as a man himself, the prophets had not been listened to or where misunderstood, so he came in person but it still was not clear to a lot of people and the rest is history.

    I've read the bible and scripture but never had this problem you speak of, perhaps it is to do with the expectation or way in which you approached the book? I know plenty of people who claim to be buddhists or have an affinity with buddhism who could not read The Light of The World for instance.
    Most of what I said was aimed at fundamentalists. Catholicism is a very different animal, like you said, it's a living tradition which is capable of adapting in a way that other's aren't. The Church and tradition is the important part, not the book. And, honestly, I don't really understand it completely, someday I'll have to take a good long in-depth look at it. Buddhism is also a very different animal.

    I was addressing an internal inconsistency shared by a lot of people who like to argue about this sort of thing ad infinitum, and personal about it. Don't get me wrong, sometimes I like to argue, and conflict can uncover some very interesting things. But from a Christian point of view, what exactly are you trying to accomplish? Most of the time people are furthering their egos instead of their ideals, and utimately sullying their own position.

  10. #370
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I'ld never condemn a person, who beliefs in something for his belief. Belief is probably the most real force in life. On the contrary, I rather tend to respect beliefs.

    But when I notice or have the feeling a religion is being very unwise, like for example when it says woman have lesser rights than men and the people from Brazil are not allowed to use condoms, I discontinue to take it serious.
    And besides that, I think most religious people have a "Vollschuß", dunno how to translate that, it's when a ball hits you very hard in the face. I tho dont think that because of their belief, but because of the lack of social competence they often have, imo. But that's my personal opinion
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