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  1. #311
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    ^^^ Sorry. It's kind of refreshing to see this sort of reaction from an NT on the internet. I would've assumed they'd have already come up with this idea already and evaluated it, and it's even more rare to see one being scandalized.

  2. #312
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Well religion isnt really popular where I come from and I just lately had the encounter with americans here, who are very into it and really believe in it. I've gotten the feeling of helplessness when discussing some things here, like i.e. the thing "if god doesnt exist, morales aint binding". Makes zero sense to me.

    But I never really gave it too much thought and besides that, I was never really a good NT. I am just posing as entp to get more girls

    P.S.: besides that it may be a problem that to entps everything is often new, tho they discussed it a billion times. You may search my threads for reference, some things come up again and again and again, but hey it's at least proof that I am down to earth with some things
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  3. #313
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    1) All belief systems are self-referential and circular. It is inescapable. The atheistic worldview is based on unprovable presuppositions as well.

    2) Who's to say who is and who is not an intellectual giant? More importantly, if you can't ultimately assign any value to intelligence what does it matter?

    If you are an atheist you are in no position to make any kind of value judgment. There is no good or bad. There is nothing good about being intelligent and nothing bad about being stupid. There is only what is. So you really can't complain about people making circular arguments. I mean you can... it's just that you will be behaving in a manner that's inconsistent with atheism.

    And what are your true beliefs if you do not act according to the one's you espouse?
    Assuming no possible values without the existence of god is simply stupid. You do not need an absolute value to compare things with. And biological and cultural evolution will account for love, empathy etc etc. While religions do not explain anything but just state that it's all because of the magical unicorn nobody ever saw in the sky. And that it's good and loving anf fair but murders people, is jealous, thinks it's okey to give your wife and daughters for a bunch of rapists to fuck and kill to protect the ass of an angel. Or almost kill your son to show the guy how much of a good slave you are. Oh and then there's this, metaphorical first sin, and god came back to commit suicide basically (which is a mortal sin) to forgive us for this sin. This sin he by the way, knew would happen, and made happen, since he's omniscient and omnipotent. and so on.

    2nd. No, belief systems AREN'T circular. FAITH is circular, belief is based on empirical data and a given value of uncertainty, the more you 'do' \ test it the less uncertain the belief becomes and closer to an ideal 'fact'. Though nobody has infinite time to test things out so whenever the system is open ended (so actual events as opposed to 2+2=4) you're bound to have uncertainty.
    Uncertainty isn't the same thing as saying something that doesn't explain anything, and refuses to adjust to new knowledge in other ways than deciding that religious 'facts' suddently become metaphores. And pick and choose what 'god means' in a book of fairy tales based on what is deemed desirable and proper.

    3rd, I never said I was an atheist. You just assume polarized positions.
    I keep using the world EMPIRICAL\ISM, how much clearer can I get. My position is just that your position is utterly unprovable and has a galaxy high pile of arguments going against it therefore doesn't have any value as a description of the world what so ever.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  4. #314
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Assuming no possible values without the existence of god is simply stupid. You do not need an absolute value to compare things with.
    I didn't say you couldn't compare things. An Atheist can state that a brick is not a gold bar. That is a comparison. What they cannot say is that a gold bar is better than a brick in any meaningful sense. It is completely subjective which one is better. Economics and market demand aside the valuation ultimately depends on certain chemical reactions in the brain that indicate that one is preferable to the other.


    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    And biological and cultural evolution will account for love, empathy etc etc.
    Again, these things are really just abstract representations of chemical reactions in the brain... that is it and nothing more. Additionally, because evolution is always changing you cannot use it to make value judgements. Looking forward you can have no idea what path evolution will take and you can't say that should take a certain path and not another one. Similarly, looking back you can only state this is how things evolved there is no basis to state things should have been any different. Survival of the fittest is not a basis of value judgments because of its circular nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    While religions do not explain anything but just state that it's all because of the magical unicorn nobody ever saw in the sky. And that it's good and loving anf fair but murders people, is jealous, thinks it's okey to give your wife and daughters for a bunch of rapists to fuck and kill to protect the ass of an angel. Or almost kill your son to show the guy how much of a good slave you are. Oh and then there's this, metaphorical first sin, and god came back to commit suicide basically (which is a mortal sin) to forgive us for this sin. This sin he by the way, knew would happen, and made happen, since he's omniscient and omnipotent. and so on.
    You cannot criticize the Bible until you defend a framework which justifies value judgments. Otherwise what happened in the bible is merely part of evolution nothing more and nothing less.

    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    2nd. No, belief systems AREN'T circular. FAITH is circular, belief is based on empirical data and a given value of uncertainty, the more you 'do' \ test it the less uncertain the belief becomes and closer to an ideal 'fact'. Though nobody has infinite time to test things out so whenever the system is open ended (so actual events as opposed to 2+2=4) you're bound to have uncertainty.
    Uncertainty isn't the same thing as saying something that doesn't explain anything, and refuses to adjust to new knowledge in other ways than deciding that religious 'facts' suddently become metaphores. And pick and choose what 'god means' in a book of fairy tales based on what is deemed desirable and proper.
    Belief is merely acceptance that something is true.
    Faith is complete trust.

    Your analysis gets at the two fundamental ways we interpret and understand the world around us: Experience and reason.
    Both of these we put complete trust in as authoritative and reliable despite the fact that reliance on these two things is not independently justified.

    That is we have no way to know whether what we sense and experience is an actual representation of material reality.
    There are at least two alternative possibilities:
    1) We are in the matrix
    2) The world was created as is 5 seconds ago with all you're current memories programmed into your brain.

    There is no basis for determining the likelihood of any of these since you cannot rely on experience.

    You might say that it is not reasonable to consider the two alternatives, but reasonability has it's own problems... it's self-referential. The only way to justify reliance on reason is to engage in reasoning.

    Thus, both the Christian and Atheistic-materialist framework rest upon unprovable presuppositions on which all other beliefs must rest. Or in other words all positions are faith positions.

    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    3rd, I never said I was an atheist. You just assume polarized positions.
    I keep using the world EMPIRICAL\ISM, how much clearer can I get. My position is just that your position is utterly unprovable and has a galaxy high pile of arguments going against it therefore doesn't have any value as a description of the world what so ever.
    There is no such thing as neutrality in belief frameworks. If you are going to attack another's beliefs you must be standing somewhere yourself. this is because every attack or question presumes an alternative framework. I based my analysis on the presumption that you were defending an atheistic-materialist position that I perceived in your other posts in this thread. If I'm wrong and you actually subscribe to a different belief system feel free to correct me.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  5. #315
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."
    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Wow that's crazy, thank you for explaining it.
    It's not crazy; it's Aleister Crowley, quoted verbatim. I must give Nicodemus credit for being consistent.

    Nicodemus, one thing that does perplex me is your choice of usernames. May I call you Nick?

  6. #316
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Aleister Crowley ? Really you should play more computer games
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  7. #317
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    No, that would make me depressive. But I do know it.
    You know it, but you basically live in denial of it. Which makes sense given that even truth has no value within your framework.

    Attacking Christians for believing in fairy tales seems to be rather hypocritical and pointless given that you think the alternative materialist framework should be ignored on a daily basis.

    What a contrast to Christianity in which everyday we seek to understand the truth and apply truth to our lives.

    From the outside you may criticize christianity for having little to do with the truth, but from the inside Christianity clearly places more value on the truth than does materialism which is incapable of doing so.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  8. #318
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Aleister Crowley ? Really you should play more computer games
    What do you mean? I do not understand.

  9. #319
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Nicodemus, one thing that does perplex me is your choice of usernames. May I call you Nick?
    I like its sound. You may call me whatever you like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Attacking Christians for believing in fairy tales seems to be rather hypocritical and pointless
    I am mocking the stupidity of the christian belief for my own entertainment. There is nothing hypocritical or pointless about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    given that you think the alternative materialist framework should be ignored on a daily basis.
    I do not think that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    What a contrast to Christianity in which everyday we seek to understand [a system of false claims] and apply [a system of false claims] to our lives.

    From the outside you may criticize christianity for having little to do with the truth, but from the inside Christianity clearly places more value on [a system of false claims] than does materialism which is incapable of doing so.
    Now it makes sense.

  10. #320
    Oberon
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    Interesting...



    The one on the right is Crowley, photographed in 1908.

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