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  1. #291
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blown Ghost View Post
    Even a rock has more intelligence than you, it does not deny its Creator.

  2. #292
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blown Ghost View Post
    Even a rock has more intelligence than you, it does not deny its Creator.

  3. #293
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blown Ghost View Post
    To approach the issue of God's existence is to assume your own sovereignty and not Gods'. To ask the question "Does God exist?" is ultimately foolish and a waste of time because His existence (or lack thereof, hypothetically) is a matter of truth and spirituality not your own conclusions.

    Instead, seek God Himself. If you do not find Him, then it is of no [further] consequence that you haven't.

    "What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator. Does a clay pot argue with its maker? Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying, 'Stop, you're doing it wrong!' Does the pot exclaim, 'How clumsy can you be?"

    Seek God Himself. To seek to define God by your own presuppositions is to take the place of God and all you will end up with is worthless idols of your own creation.

    Humanity has been doing this since the dawn of time, with each generation earnestly believing they will succeed where the last has failed. Such is the effect of the original lie and the fall of man. Man has fallen and cannot get back up on his own.

    How can one who has fallen get back up? Can he lift himself back up on his own? No, for he is still in the state that caused him to fall. Only if another comes and picks him up can he stand again.

    Man has fallen from God by our own folly, which was capitalized upon not by the creator Himself but the creator of lies.


    Anyone who says he is never wrong is a liar, and has been lied to. Look around. You see the deception of others, do you not know you've also been deceived? Of course not, because the deception is effective. I will not lie to you, I am also deceived. I am even now in a state of self-deception of my state of deception which I struggle to free myself from to no avail.

    I was born a wolf, and at best I am a goat, now my only hope is to be a lamb. Do as I do, not to free yourself, but to change your mind and seek God, the one you have fallen from. Why do you lay on the ground and gather together dirt to make your own god? Look and see that He has bent Himself to you graciously to pick you up. No, in fact He has cast Himself on the ground for you to fall upon. Such is the God you seek: He blessed you in your creation, but you spit in His face and run away, and yet He still seeks to save you from your own self-destruction. You run away from Him to your own suffering and destruction but He remains unchanging in His love, never forcing, but asking that you turn back... not to place the penalty you know you deserve on your head but to forgive and forget. God is here, He is very real, and if you want to understand Him you must see that He is seeking a relationship with you before the rest of it makes sense. If I say "seek God Himself" and you say "how?", you should know, God knows the number of hair you have (for bald people that's not so impressive I understand). You are an infant in knowledge in comparison, so speak, aloud or in silence, and start asking for Him. Be persistent in asking, be annoying, inconvenience God with all that you ask for... this is far preferable to Him than your life so far of ignoring/ignorance.

    Why do you trade eternal gifts which would be given to you freely if you would only take them? Instead you opt for empty intellectualizing and philosophy. Even a rock has more intelligence than you, it does not deny its Creator. All that you are seeking to do now bears the mark of the first lie: that you would establish yourself apart from your maker. But unlike the angels, you are made in the image of your maker, and your maker has such love for you that He bears with your lie in hopes you find the Truth that is only in Him. He waits for you 24/365. If you want the truth, I will say it again, seek God Himself. I cannot do anything for you because I am just like you, but I can point you in the right direction. I say that not because I know the truth with absolution, but I have found it in Jesus (God's incarnation on earth... carne, like chili con carne, God with meat) and I would be a liar to not tell you that.
    I hope this is a parody.

  4. #294
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    So, what are the rules here.
    Making up totally self referent stories and circular arguments without ever bothering to use any kind of empirical data?
    Isn't that what's in every single fiction book? No, actually most fiction books have way more basis in reality.

    I cannot begin to fathom how I could ever fight such intellectual giants.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  5. #295
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I hope this is a parody.
    Parodies have the awful habit of being taken literally.

  6. #296
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    “I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.” ~ Galileo
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  7. #297
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    So, what are the rules here.
    Making up totally self referent stories and circular arguments without ever bothering to use any kind of empirical data?
    Isn't that what's in every single fiction book? No, actually most fiction books have way more basis in reality.

    I cannot begin to fathom how I could ever fight such intellectual giants.
    1) All belief systems are self-referential and circular. It is inescapable. The atheistic worldview is based on unprovable presuppositions as well.

    2) Who's to say who is and who is not an intellectual giant? More importantly, if you can't ultimately assign any value to intelligence what does it matter?

    If you are an atheist you are in no position to make any kind of value judgment. There is no good or bad. There is nothing good about being intelligent and nothing bad about being stupid. There is only what is. So you really can't complain about people making circular arguments. I mean you can... it's just that you will be behaving in a manner that's inconsistent with atheism.

    And what are your true beliefs if you do not act according to the one's you espouse?
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  8. #298
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    1) All belief systems are self-referential and circular. It is inescapable. The atheistic worldview is based on unprovable presuppositions as well.

    2) Who's to say who is and who is not an intellectual giant? More importantly, if you can't ultimately assign any value to intelligence what does it matter?

    If you are an atheist you are in no position to make any kind of value judgment. There is no good or bad. There is nothing good about being intelligent and nothing bad about being stupid. There is only what is. So you really can't complain about people making circular arguments. I mean you can... it's just that you will be behaving in a manner that's inconsistent with atheism.

    And what are your true beliefs if you do not act according to the one's you espouse?
    This is not correct. the greek word atheism means that one doesnt believe in a God, but it doesnt mean said person doesnt hold any values. That's existenzialism you mean.

    I fight the christian religion where I can because I think it has caused more evil in the world than it did good. Alone recently when the pope went to Brazil to tell them condoms are bad, condeming the already overcrowded country to suffer even more because they believe in the guidance church can provide. I do not condemn all religions, but the christian one, I can safely condemn without any hesitation. It uses the same instruments like nationalism did in Germany to create a tribe mentality and it will always find followers in humanity. I can tolerate it as long as it doesnt have too much power. Those people who find guidance there, shall go there and do their things, as long as said, it doesnt get to much power. And I am convinced, with the ongoing years, the problem christian religion will solve itself
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  9. #299
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    This is not correct. the greek word atheism means that one doesnt believe in a God, but it doesnt mean said person doesnt hold any values. That's existenzialism you mean.
    For the record I agree with Beefeater here. It's not that an athiest can't have values, it's just that there is no way to attain values without a non-rational act of 'faith'. People's ideas of good and bad and worth are absorbed from upbringing and culture. Science is incapable of differentiating good from bad, it can just inform the values that we already possess.

    It seems to me that values are culturally materialized as part of a tribal/self-defense process, and sometimes they are codefied as religion.

  10. #300
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    This is not correct. the greek word atheism means that one doesnt believe in a God, but it doesnt mean said person doesnt hold any values. That's existenzialism you mean.
    Wrong.

    I didn't say that atheists don't have values. I said they have no reason to have values and that they live lives that are in contradiction with the logical conclusions of their presuppositions.

    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I fight the christian religion where I can because I think it has caused more evil in the world than it did good. Alone recently when the pope went to Brazil to tell them condoms are bad, condeming the already overcrowded country to suffer even more because they believe in the guidance church can provide. I do not condemn all religions, but the christian one, I can safely condemn without any hesitation. It uses the same instruments like nationalism did in Germany to create a tribe mentality and it will always find followers in humanity. I can tolerate it as long as it doesnt have too much power. Those people who find guidance there, shall go there and do their things, as long as said, it doesnt get to much power. And I am convinced, with the ongoing years, the problem christian religion will solve itself
    Why? What is the basis of good and evil if there is no God?

    On what basis can you claim that someone else should adopt your values?

    Both Brazil and the Vatican are cultures set apart from yours how can you judge them for their practices and what goes on there?
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

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