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  1. #261
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Romans 1:20 (New International Version, ©2010)
    20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
    I don't think people are looking hard enough- or are looking too hard- you feel me?

    But then some people choose to deny a very very fundamental need within themselves.

  2. #262
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    So the holy ghost did not instruct those men to write their respective parts of the bible?

    I'd use the word 'move' more so than instruct, but you are correct........

    God doesn't need to prove anything, he chooses to do so because he knows that human beings need it.

  3. #263
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    I don't think people are looking hard enough- or are looking too hard- you feel me?

    But then some people choose to deny a very very fundamental need within themselves.
    Wow, just. Wow.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  4. #264
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueGray View Post
    It is possible to use subjective experiences to create a definition. With love most people simply fail to agree to any definition. I could define love as I enjoy spending time with someone, or I am happier when with them.
    The question of love has much more weight to it than simply agreeing on a definition. I mean a scientist could give a definition and then answer "yes" or "no" about its existence, but that would totally miss the point of the question. When people want to know about love then they aren't really interested in what a scientist has to say. But there are countless songs, poems, movies, books, etc... made about love which people voraciously devour. That is because people are not interested in the objective part about love like definitions and chemicals. Instead they are interested in a specific type of subjective experience.

    That can work as a definition for God. The problems come in when people make further assumptions on that and treat these assumptions as fact. Proving a definition is simple, it is making use of that definition accurately that is more difficult.
    Treating assumptions as fact is a different issue. Because if these are hard facts, then they can be taught in a school, which many believers do not want. Separate issue.

    People are discussing the possibility of a God that impacts their world. People in such threads aren't discussing about their personal God that does nothing but watches them and rejoices in their success. They are trying to talk about some universal God that changes the world. It is by applying that their idea of God changes the world that they give attention and meaning to it.
    That is part of it, but there are also deists, agnostics and atheists that join the discussion. And in my experience the typical atheist talks about God much more than the typical believer. There are lots of atheists out there that seem obsessed with God.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    I can prove love exists. It's coded by chemicals in our blood.
    Equating love to chemicals in the blood is like equating The Grapes of Wrath to ink on a page. There is much more to the experience of love than the chemicals. Otherwise people could just buy the chemicals and not have to worry about finding a suitable partner. Likewise if you open The Grapes of Wrath and simply study the ink instead of reading the book, then you've completely missed the point. Also there is much more to a spiritual life than finding evidence for God's existence. Love is meant to be an experience. Reading The Grapes of Wrath is meant to be experience. Faith in God is meant to be an experience. To reduce any of these things to a scientific study completely misses the point.

    Of course the existence of God is more important than the existence of that stupid teapot. After all, no wars are fought in the name of the teapot. But existence doesn't depend on importance of the question. The reasoning is the same.
    The reasoning may be the same, but the motivation is different. Much more money is spent looking for a cure to Aids instead looking for a cure to the common cold. That is because the cure to Aids is much more important. It's vital we keep looking for a cure even if it's not possible that one can ever be found. Likewise questions about a transcendent entity like God are universal. It is vitally important that we pursue the answer even if the answer can never be found.

    We haven't observed a god. And the people who claim they have: please tell me how to do it. I'd like to meet the god too!
    I find I observe God by praying with faith. Your miles may vary.
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
    http://www.revoltingvegetables.com

  5. #265
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    I find I observe God by praying with faith. Your miles may vary.
    I observe unicorns the same way.








    And then people came up with empiricism.

    "# Psychiatry. A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: delusions of persecution."
    It's not that you live that you won't die. It's not that you can function and that alot of people believe in similar things that they're not all clinicaly delusional.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  6. #266
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Wow, just. Wow.
    Care to elaborate?

  7. #267
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    I'd use the word 'move' more so than instruct, but you are correct........

    God doesn't need to prove anything, he chooses to do so because he knows that human beings need it.
    I'm reminded of shanon entropy plots about the complexity of communication and what it could entail about communication with aliens species when data analysis suggests entropies(predictability in other words) of too different orders.
    Then again it's a matter of sampling sizes. Though I don't think that's the issue here

    Basically I don't think there can be any work efficient meaningful communication between us. From my perspective at least.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  8. #268
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    I'm reminded of shanon entropy plots about the complexity of communication and what it could entail about communication with aliens species when data analysis suggests entropies(predictability in other words) of too different orders.
    Then again it's a matter of sampling sizes. Though I don't think that's the issue here

    Basically I don't think there can be any work efficient meaningful communication between us. From my perspective at least.

    Suit yourself.

  9. #269
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    God doesn't need to prove anything, he chooses to do so because he knows that human beings need it.
    If he exists, he made them so that they 'need it'. Had he made them otherwise, there would have been no 'need' for such a belief and, consequently, such a book. So he created himself slaves and admirers. He wanted you to have that 'need'. Then he left the book for you. Coincidence? In the world he created, in the world he can change whenever and however he pleases?

    Do you find it plausible that an almighty, perfect god creates himself a race of needy slaves to entertain himself (for which a truthfully perfect being had no need, since perfection does not require anything) and then offers as proof of his existence, as fulfillment of their deepest 'need' nothing but a book prone to be misread?

    You say he wanted you to have the free will to choose whether or not to believe in him. Why, then, did he instill into you that awful 'need' to believe?

  10. #270
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    If he exists, he made them so that they 'need it'. Had he made them otherwise, there would have been no 'need' for such a belief and, consequently, such a book. So he created himself slaves and admirers. He wanted you to have that 'need'. Then he left the book for you. Coincidence? In the world he created, in the world he can change whenever and however he pleases?

    Do you find it plausible that an almighty, perfect god creates himself a race of needy slaves to entertain himself (for which a truthfully perfect being had no need, since perfection does not require anything) and then offers as proof of his existence, as fulfillment of their deepest 'need' nothing but a book prone to be misread?

    You say he wanted you to have the free will to choose whether or not to believe in him. Why, then, did he instill into you that awful 'need' to believe?

    Actually God's perfect in the absolute sense. His creation is 'perfect' to the degree relative to his own. So we will always have 'needs' because we aren't as self sufficient as people would like to think about themselves.

    He created human beings to be inherently needy. No one man is an island. Like we need food, water, shelter, companionship, etc.

    I can't answer the question of why He made us to need him, but it makes sense that He would expect acknowledgement of who He is in his intellgent creation's lives.

    I think the term slave is extreme. Are you a slave to oxygen?

    If you look at what he did with Adam & Eve, all he asked them to do is not eat from one tree, as a symbol of their acknowledgement of Him.

    It makes sense if you realize how he operates and that he doesn't need to be over top of you like some cop. The free will is for you to use, at the same time accept what comes with how you use it. Adam, Eve, and the Devil all chose to use their free will to not serve God. Other Angels, Jesus Christ, and other human beings mentioned in the Bible chose to recognize God in their lives, and he has and will reward those for their sticking to his side of the issue.

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