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  1. #221
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    That only means we've got to make up better laws. It means we don't understand everything of the universe - which is quite normal, actually, because we're just a tiny part of it. We're chess pieces trying to understand the game. It doesn't mean there is a conscious being purposely doing things which are impossible according to our laws of physics.
    The most awesome and craziest thing is that there are such laws. We can almost with 100% certainty assume that mass will attract each other according to the law of gravity. We even relied with our lives on that law when we sent a rocket to the moon - and it didn't fail us!
    Miracles? No... just an incomplete understanding. Which does NOT take out the wonder from our universe. After all, a rainbow is still beautiful even if you know how it's made.
    Hey Tam, I'll try to respond in the morning. I'm pretty drowsy.

  2. #222
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    Of course. You can not "prove" that something doesn't exist.
    You try to prove there is no little teapot on orbit between Mars and Jupiter. Especially if the teapot is invisible.
    I don't think this analogy is apt, because no one really cares if there is a teapot between Mars and Jupiter. However almost everyone cares about whether or not God exists. The question "Does God really exist" is more like the question, "Does love really exist". I can tell you it does, but I can't really prove it. All I can say is if you sincerely look for it then you will find it eventually.
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
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  3. #223
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Smile Sincerity or Science?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    ...if you sincerely look for it then you will find it eventually.
    No one doubts your sincerity. But we are all prone to illusion. And one of our most common illusions, to the extent it has become a truism, is, "if you look for something, you will find it".

    The scientific method is designed to avoid illusions, and in particular the illusion of finding what we look for.

    And the scientific method is also designed to avoid group illusions, or what is commonly called group think.

    Unfortunately those with sincere illusions seek validation in a group, so we then have the double illusion of the group illusion validating the sincere individual illusion.

    And we are fortunate to be able to directly see this double illusion operating in front of us every day on MBTI.

    But none of us can help but be touched by its sincerity.

  4. #224
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The scientific method is designed to avoid illusions, and in particular the illusion of finding what we look for.

    And the scientific method is also designed to avoid group illusions, or what is commonly called group think.
    Let me spell my point out a little more clearly. The question "Does God exist" cannot be answered objectively. That is why the scientific method won't work in this case. I say it's like "Does love exist", because regardless of how you answer the question you're going to have a personal stake in it. There can't be any objectivity and that is why using the scientific method in this case is useless. Some questions are inherently personal.
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
    http://www.revoltingvegetables.com

  5. #225
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Smile Loosing our heads over illusions.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Let me spell my point out a little more clearly. The question "Does God exist" cannot be answered objectively. That is why the scientific method won't work in this case. I say it's like "Does love exist", because regardless of how you answer the question you're going to have a personal stake in it. There can't be any objectivity and that is why using the scientific method in this case is useless. Some questions are inherently personal.
    The scientific method can show an illusion. For instance, the scientific method can show that the Sun goes round the Earth is an illusion.

    In fact we might say that the scientific method has been replacing illusion with fact. But we are inclined to hang on to our personal illusions and our group illusions like grim death.

    And if you criticize the illusions of 1.1 billion of us, you have a reasonable chance of having your head cut off.

    So some of us loose our heads over our personal illusions and our group illusions, while some of us simply have our heads cut off.

    So it's heads you win and tails we loose.

  6. #226
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I have found endless comfort and (much NEEDED) humility in my belief that something greater than myself exists.

    Regardless of whether it exists or not, I am grateful that my belief in a higher power has allowed me to be a better person.
    You could just as well have walked into a hurricane.

  7. #227

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    It takes a lot of work to overturn belief in God and also the plausibility of that belief, its only generally the grown up who will find it immanently implausible to entertain such beliefs and I think as a consequence its often mistaken for a mark of maturity to disbelief.

  8. #228
    Oberon
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    I wonder which is the more poignant... the desperate emotional need deep down in the soul that there be a God, or the desperate emotional need deep down in the soul that there be no such thing?

  9. #229
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    ^ perspicacity in action.

  10. #230
    Senior Member BlueGray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    I don't think this analogy is apt, because no one really cares if there is a teapot between Mars and Jupiter. However almost everyone cares about whether or not God exists. The question "Does God really exist" is more like the question, "Does love really exist". I can tell you it does, but I can't really prove it. All I can say is if you sincerely look for it then you will find it eventually.
    If you give a definition of love it can be proven by showing such definition occurs. It's a failure to reach consensus on love, not the difficulty of actually proving it, that stops you from proving it. Love as defined by chemical reactions has been observed. What definition would one give for God? Any definition that is not testable in some manner would mean God has no impact on us. I would disagree that I care about whether there is some God doing absolutely nothing to alter me or anything I can observe. Such a God has less importance to me than the existence of a teapot orbiting in space as there is a way to test for that teapot given infinite resources.
    Ne > Ti > Si >> Te > Se >> Fe > Fi > Ni
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