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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Yes, that is what I am saying....you are assuming the bible is accurate, and I don't think it's fair to do so in applying motivations to people who don't think the bible is accurate. The bible is a set of belief systems, not facts. You're stating things as though they were universal facts when they are actually just statements from the bible.
    Actually there are many verified facts in the bible regarding history.
    Just saying.

  2. #162
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  3. #163
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Yeah, belief in ourselves, foremost.
    Narcissism, with an avatar like that?

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    They may have a point that it was certainly harder to be an atheist when the church avidly persecuted the "ungodly", but there are obviously considerable differences between the living situations now vs. the dark ages that have nothing to do with god, making the comparison a little difficult.
    Yeah because that social structure and belief system survived for hundreds of years and generation upon generation because of persecution, man, peasants and labourers must have been complete wooses back then. Wondering if dark ages isnt a serious misnomer from where I'm sitting.

    Still stuck on the idea that finding god a "burden" is the main reason for not believing. I disagree - although it would be a burden in some ways, I don't think that is the main reason or even a large one.
    I'm not stuck on any idea, where do you get that from? I remember a thread on that topic a long time ago but I do believe that some people do find belief too much trouble, maybe its not the reason for disbelief for some others but I know for sure that there are people who are only interested in or engaged in spiritual preoccupation when its meeting some deep seated need. The equivalent of fair weather friends.

    I don't think humans were "built with" that need - that's your own perspective bleeding out, not fact. God and science are not a dichotomy (many choose both, or neither). Science is more of a methodology than a belief system, so of course it applies in fewer areas than religion. Disbelieving in god doesn't mean you lack the feeling/humanitarian "factor", as you imply. Plenty of atheists are involved in charity and foreign aid projects.

    I'm not saying the world would be better or worse without God, as I still don't think we can predict that with our current level of knowledge. What you're saying about non-believers is actually not true though, based on the facts
    There's more evidence to support that people have needs which are satisfied by spirituality than there are not, for some people its attachment when there's not a suitable other, for other people its a host of reasons, sometimes its a pretty personal reason unique to that individual. If they dont have one outlet they'll find another.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Uh huh.
    [youtube="FI4rpNrkfps"]Evolution vs Religion[/youtube]

  6. #166
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    But hey why stop there:
    In recent decades, the encounter between William Jennings Bryan and Clarence Darrow at the Scopes trial in 1925 has achieved similar legendary status as a major turning point in the war between science and religion. According to common opinion, the evolutionists, though defeated on legal grounds, scored a stunning public-relations victory, halted the anti-evolution crusade, and exposed the bumbling Bryan as an ignoramus. A more careful look suggests that they did nothing of the sort. Even liberal contemporaries, Paul M. Wag- goner has shown, tended at first to view the trial as a disturbing fundamentalist victory, and the anti-evolution campaign continued to prosper for several years after the trial. By present standards, Bryan displayed remarkable openmindedness for a creationist. Publicly, he not only accepted the testimony of geologists regarding the antiquity of the earth, but conceded that the "days" of Genesis represented long periods of time. Privately, he allowed to friends that he had no quarrel with "evolution before man."36

    http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1987/PSCF9-87Lindberg.html

  7. #167
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    Yeah, the point was not so much if Darrow was a great orator or not (and you have shown a fine reenactment from a christian missionary website to demonstrate how unsympathetic Darrow might have looked in a debate with Chesterton of which it is very hard to find a transcript), but that the character played by Spencer Tracy makes a few interesting points - and to please Nicodemus who kept making references to it. I grant you that the movie might portray Bryan as more of an idiot than he was, but that is besides the point.

    Re the innate need for spirituality, I think it does exist, and there is a simple explanation:

    http://www.michaelshermer.com/2008/1...city/#more-601
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Yeah, that point was not so much if Darrow was a great orator or not (and you have shown a fine reenactment from a christian missionary website to demonstrate how unsympathetic Darrow might have looked in a debate with Chesterton of which it is very hard to find a transcript), but that the character played by Spencer Tracy makes a few interesting points. I grant you that the movie might portray Bryan as more of an idiot than he was, but that is besides the point.
    Alright and what exactly is the point?

  9. #169
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    - 0:50, I once posted a nice soundbite from Steven Fry about the same humanistic vision. This is also a reply to those worrying about "what a world without god would look like". The comviction that you need divine laws and consequences to avoid utter deaster is pretty misanthropic.

    - the obvious problems of a literal interpretation of scripture (or, if you step away from that, as most do today, of drawing the line to determine exactly how much freedom there can be in exegesis...some of it like the depth psychology exegesis of people like Drewermann is very liberal indeed).

    - to throw in a piece of a great movie for the heck of it.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
    A herring's blog
    Johari / Nohari

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Actually there are many verified facts in the bible regarding history.
    It's fascinating that it was archeologists from Israeli Universities that found the Exodus didn't occur. And the Exodus is a founding myth of both Judaism and Christianity.

    Just as it was Mormon archeologists who found the Book of Mormon about America and Central America was completely mythical.

    But what is even more fascinating is that these archeological facts made no difference to the beliefs of the faithful.

    Just as discovering that MBTI is not a personality test makes no difference to us here.

    So there can be no doubt we have all gone down the rabbit hole with Alice.

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