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  1. #121
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    So the issue is not science vs religion - it never has been. It is, always had been, and always will be a theological-philosophical debate.
    True if we're talking about the existence or non-existence of God. (Like we do in this thread.) I do however understand the people who feel Christianity is a science vs religion issue when the Young Earth Creationists and fundamentalists start demanding with increasing force that their ideological world view should be taught in school, followed in the judicial system etc on an equal footing with the scientific and/or non-religious views.

    My own views:
    Can God plausibly exist? Absolutely.
    Is the Bible God's infallible message to the world? No. Could it be? I find it hard to believe, but I guess it could theoretically.
    Can the Bible have gotten a lot of it right even if it's written by people and not dictated by God? Certainly.
    Is it the most plausible explanation? No, not in my opinion. If there is a creator god of the universe I think it's too grand and alien for humanity to grasp, and we can for all purposes think of it as the laws of the universe and the universe itself. In this view all religions and science are attempts at grasping "God", but none will be able to grasp more than small aspects of the observable patterns.

    And if there is no God, it amounts to the same as the latter: Nobody will have the complete picture, but all science and religion can stumble upon important truths about the laws that govern the physical and psychological laws of the universe.
    I have arms for a fucking reaosn, so come hold me. Then we'll fuvk! Whoooooh! - GZA

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carebear View Post
    True if we're talking about the existence or non-existence of God. (Like we do in this thread.) I do however understand the people who feel Christianity is a science vs religion issue when the Young Earth Creationists and fundamentalists start demanding with increasing force that their ideological world view should be taught in school, followed in the judicial system etc on an equal footing with the scientific and/or non-religious views.
    I think the proper term would be theological rather than ideological. Nevertheless, I think you overblow the force that YEC have in trying to supposedly impose their views within the schools. If anything, it seems the Dawkins-like crowd are the real fanatics on that front.

    There was even an incident I heard about where a voluntary ID-based philosophy course was dropped due to pressure from "Evolutionists"(lack of a better term - Secularists would probably be more accurate).

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    And I'm pointing out the inconsistency of that premise in regards to your overall argument.
    It isn't inconsistent. My argument has a very strange format, what I did in the beginning is simply a lead-up to the questions-answer session. The questions and answer session by itself would have been very strange.


    Im not arguing against the Big Bang theory. Im arguing against the argument that it helps to disprove God's existence.
    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Didums View Post
    That wasn't my argument, at all.
    At no point did I declare: The Big Bang disproves God's existence. Not in any way, shape or form.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didums View Post
    ... At no point did I declare: The Big Bang disproves God's existence. Not in any way, shape or form.
    You claimed it as a premise for your overall argument, did you not?

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    You claimed it as a premise for your overall argument, did you not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Didums View Post

    Singularity --> Big Bang due to high vaccum pressure --> Stars and Galaxies form over billions of years --> About 9 billion years into the Universe the Sun of our Solar System forms --> Very shortly after, the Earth forms (.05 billion years after) --> the bombardment of earth by asteroids, meteors, etc --> 0.14 to 1.84 billion years into Earth's existence, Abiogenesis brings primitive cells into existence (on its own, no help from God needed) --> For a few billion years these primitive cells become more complex and compete for survival --> transitional forms of cells arise, the transition being single-celled to multi-celled (no help from God needed) --> Multi-celled organisms arise and begin to spread and evolve --> Precambrian --> (okay this is taking a while and I think i'm making my point, i'll skip a bit) --> Homo Sapiens become a distict species in the Homo Genus (we arrived this way on our own, no help from God), also a few subspecies of Homo Sapiens come about but go extinct (they came after us but died out) --> Homo Sapiens spread from Africa to the rest of the world --> We adapt differently to the environments of the world (had our species been isolated we would have branched off from each other, Asians, Caucasians, etc) --> Each culture has its own religious explanation for our origins --> (blah blah the idea is made)


    This whole chunk's purpose was simply to warm the reader up to the tone of the questions I would be asking, the questions by themselves would seem to be "out of nowhere" given that I didn't have the chunk in the beginning

  6. #126
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    You're still implying that the Big Bang disproves God, or at least renders his existence unlikely.

    Even still, your "questions" have little if anything to do with the actual question of God's existence.

  7. #127
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I think the proper term would be theological rather than ideological.
    The basis is theological, but the end result is ideology imo. (Not that it really matters, I could have used the word theology as well.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Nevertheless, I think you overblow the force that YEC have in trying to supposedly impose their views within the schools.
    Quite possibly. I admit I only have other people's word for it. (Since I live in a different part of the world and don't really experience it first hand.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    If anything, it seems the Dawkins-like crowd are the real fanatics on that front.
    There was even an incident I heard about where a voluntary ID-based philosophy course was dropped due to pressure from "Evolutionists"(lack of a better term - Secularists would probably be more accurate).
    Doesn't surprise me the least. Fanaticism is not limited to religion.
    I have arms for a fucking reaosn, so come hold me. Then we'll fuvk! Whoooooh! - GZA

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    You're still implying that the Big Bang disproves God, or at least renders his existence unlikely.

    Even still, your "questions" have little if anything to do with the actual question of God's existence.
    I never imply that the Big Bang disproves God lol, look at the chunk as a Whole, what is it doing? It is showing chronologically how we got to this point in time, focus on the big picture not the little details. Also, i've revised this argument but I don't know whether or not to replace the current OP with the revised essay or to start a new one, it would surely clear up some misconceptions though..

    No, what my argument does is show that God's existence is actually of little importance to us because we have no reason to believe that it has intervented in our Universe.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didums View Post
    I never imply that the Big Bang disproves God lol, look at the chunk as a Whole, what is it doing? It is showing chronologically how we got to this point in time, focus on the big picture not the little details.
    I am focusing on the big picture here, namely that pointing to natural phenonmena like the Big Bang and so on doesn't support your overall argument.

    No, what my argument does is show that God's existence is actually of little importance to us because we have no reason to believe that it has intervented in our Universe.
    If God does exist, then by default he's the first cause of the universe, which would render such an argument entirely pointless - not to mention illogical.

    So dance around the around the issue as much as you like, in the end you're arguing in favor of God's non-existence.

  10. #130
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    I'm going to go ahead and end conversation with you in this thread, it is pointless.

    Final words:::

    I say: "look at the chunk as a Whole, what is it doing? It is showing chronologically how we got to this point in time"

    In order to cover all of the subjects addressed in my questions, what I did was give a brief overview of the history of the Universe, to warm up the reader to the questions.

    you respond : "pointing to natural phenonmena like the Big Bang and so on doesn't support your overall argument."

    *facepalm*

    I say: "what my argument does is show that God's existence is actually of little importance to us because we have no reason to believe that it has intervented in our Universe." (Intervented is a Typo, it isn't a word, one can logically determine that the closest word to that is Intervened)

    you respond: "If God does exist, then by default he's the first cause of the universe, which would render such an argument entirely pointless - not to mention illogical."

    Key word in my quote: INTERVENED! INTERVENED! INTERVENED! Re-read my effing questions-answers please if you want to continue.

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