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    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Default Humanism - Overall optimistic or pessimistic?

    What do you consider humanism and humanistic creeds to be generally optimistic or pessimistic?

    I have read accounts which argue that the old testament is optimistic and the new testament pessimistic in Judeo-Christian tradition, although I've also read accounts which argue exactly the reverse too and heard arguments over individual books and the stories contained in books. So I'm inclined to think that most philosophies and spiritualities are the same.

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    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    What do you consider humanism and humanistic creeds to be generally optimistic or pessimistic?

    I have read accounts which argue that the old testament is optimistic and the new testament pessimistic in Judeo-Christian tradition, although I've also read accounts which argue exactly the reverse too and heard arguments over individual books and the stories contained in books. So I'm inclined to think that most philosophies and spiritualities are the same.
    Humanism--we have the power in each of us to make the world better.
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    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Qwan View Post
    Humanism--we have the power in each of us to make the world better.
    Or destroy it.

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    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    What do you consider humanism and humanistic creeds to be generally optimistic or pessimistic?
    I would consider it generally optimistic and would actually find the idea that it could be considered pessimistic a puzzling one, given that it's view of humanity is often idealized.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I have read accounts which argue that the old testament is optimistic and the new testament pessimistic in Judeo-Christian tradition, although I've also read accounts which argue exactly the reverse too and heard arguments over individual books and the stories contained in books. So I'm inclined to think that most philosophies and spiritualities are the same.
    My Christians I know hold the Old Testament in regards to the same way one would an curmudgeonly, eccentric uncle: Something they have to tolerate, but seem to be mostly embarrassed about. The new testament on the otherhand is given praise and accolades all day and all night.
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    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    I would consider it generally optimistic and would actually find the idea that it could be considered pessimistic a puzzling one, given that it's view of humanity is often idealized.



    My Christians I know hold the Old Testament in regards to the same way one would an curmudgeonly, eccentric uncle: Something they have to tolerate, but seem to be mostly embarrassed about. The new testament on the otherhand is given praise and accolades all day and all night.
    The golden rule is nice, and it is really all you need to get by with in daily life.
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    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

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    I think the idea of humanism tries very hard to be neither optimistic or pessimistic and focus more on pseudo-realism.

    I think it is on the right track. Humanism says 'hold on a minute, let's think about that for a second.' when it comes to existing preconceptions of human society and then looks for the value of the human in the preconception rather than breaking it down and start from scratch.

    It gains a particularly large following through this and is one of the most relatable ideals in existance. And regardless of your thoughts on life, there will be great parts of the humanism philosophy that no one can truely refute outright. The only importance however is not wether something feels right or wrong. But how much that something can be given a value.

    Why give value to something that can't be given value.

    Humanism tries to answer inherently unanswerable questions, but for what reason. Do these questions really need answering in the first place?

    If you don't feel good about yourself unless you conform to ideals and beliefs that in turn do make you feel good about yourself, then the result is no doubt quantifiable to some extent and one could say these beliefs and ideals have saved them.

    But I would argue that the reason you don't feel good about yourself without your ideals and beliefs is a problem that is merely avoided rather than solved by doing this.

    Life is quantifiable. But the answer isn't as phylosophical as one might think. Life merely goes through the motions.

    Movement is all that quantifies life, and while I keep on moving, I will remain a happy man.
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    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Doesn't strike me as either. It just strikes me as altogether more reasonable than a lot of alternatives.

    It's not perfect, though. I think, in pursuing its main points, adherents can over-emphasize free will, try too hard to define some ephemeral human nature, and make some dubious assertions about intrinsic value in human beings.

    EDIT: Oh, and, obviously, they tend to be a bit too anthropocentric.
    Last edited by Magic Poriferan; 03-19-2015 at 09:04 PM.
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    as with a hammer, it depends upon who is wielding it
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    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    as with a hammer, it depends upon who is wielding it
    That in itself is quite interesting.

    If an ideal or belief is so malleble that its very meaning differs from one person to the next, then quantifying it seems to be an impossibility indeed.

    Perhaps it is better to think about what you want to achieve, rather than what to believe.
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    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    That in itself is quite interesting.

    If an ideal or belief is so malleble that its very meaning differs from one person to the next, then quantifying it seems to be an impossibility indeed.

    Perhaps it is better to think about what you want to achieve, rather than what to believe.
    I wish I could quote the two posts in this post.

    On the one hand I think it is true that ideas can be exploited and are, the underlying character traits and structure of the believers is more important, some people can switch ideologies. Bertrand Russell talked about how he knew protestant and catholic atheists for instance.

    Although that said I think there are true and corrupted versions of ideas too, there is malleability and pluralism but they are still right and wrong definitions of words, there has to be, one of the best conservative criticisms of individualism in theory and philosophy, for instance, is that there are no individual languages, it is social in essence, purpose, construction.

    There's also the definition and the shadow too, to employ the old Jungian dichotomy too.

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