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  1. #11
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    That in itself is quite interesting.

    If an ideal or belief is so malleble that its very meaning differs from one person to the next, then quantifying it seems to be an impossibility indeed.

    Perhaps it is better to think about what you want to achieve, rather than what to believe.
    or whether one's locus of control is internal or external?

    people of any belief can be pessimistic, ranging from fatalism to negative nihilism... or they can take the other path

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I wish I could quote the two posts in this post.

    On the one hand I think it is true that ideas can be exploited and are, the underlying character traits and structure of the believers is more important, some people can switch ideologies. Bertrand Russell talked about how he knew protestant and catholic atheists for instance.

    Although that said I think there are true and corrupted versions of ideas too, there is malleability and pluralism but they are still right and wrong definitions of words, there has to be, one of the best conservative criticisms of individualism in theory and philosophy, for instance, is that there are no individual languages, it is social in essence, purpose, construction.

    There's also the definition and the shadow too, to employ the old Jungian dichotomy too.
    it's easy to quote two posts at once

    a secular humanist can be just as optimistic as the most happily religious person... and a fatalistic believer can be just as bad as the most pessimistic atheist... it's the person, not the belief
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett
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  2. #12
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    or whether one's locus of control is internal or external?

    people of any belief can be pessimistic, ranging from fatalism to negative nihilism... or they can take the other path



    it's easy to quote two posts at once

    a secular humanist can be just as optimistic as the most happily religious person... and a fatalistic believer can be just as bad as the most pessimistic atheist... it's the person, not the belief
    Easy for you.

    I agree character has a lot to do with it, ideas can be intrinsically or essentially one or the other too though.

    I've encountered both optimism and pessimism in humanism.

  3. #13
    noʎ ɟo ǝʇnɔ ʍoH Mademoiselle's Avatar
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    Actually it is neutral.
    It always have been.
    Imagine this is the best thing you've ever read.

  4. #14
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    Humanism to me is very idealistic in nature. It has a messianic element (the vision of utopia) which is present in most traditional religions.

    I actually feel like a disillusioned Humanist. It isn't that I loathe the movement's ideals, but feel it has been hijacked by the far left (like atheism itself has been). This is the original Humanist Manifesto: Humanist Manifesto I. Assuming you're non-religious, it is hard to object to any of the summit points.

    Compare that to the latest: Humanist Manifesto III. The politically loaded language is quite obvious. The ideas of a "global community" and "supporting diversity", for example. These were not in the original manifesto. I no longer participate in any groups because of a big schism that opened up around five years ago between hard atheists and atheistic Leftists over this issue.

  5. #15
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Easy for you.

    I agree character has a lot to do with it, ideas can be intrinsically or essentially one or the other too though.

    I've encountered both optimism and pessimism in humanism.
    click the little speech bubble with the plus beside it (beside the reply with quote on the bottom right) on the first post you want to quote and then click the reply with quote for the second... both will show up

    of course an individual can swing between the two sides of the idea on their own...

    at times I consider exactly how insignificant I am in the grand scheme of things, that the fact that I'm a tiny living thing on a tiny planet around a small star in a vast galaxy doesn't matter at all... that whatever meaning my actions have is just assigned by years of human behavior and that we've just overcomplicated things to the point where we think that we can buy a meaning and we work tirelessly and wear ourselves out for a lifetime just to try and buy some meaning to our lives because of what?

    but then there's the empowering side... there may not be a meaning to our existence, but we can make one... life is what you make of it and the universe is AWESOME!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett
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  6. #16
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    click the little speech bubble with the plus beside it (beside the reply with quote on the bottom right) on the first post you want to quote and then click the reply with quote for the second... both will show up

    of course an individual can swing between the two sides of the idea on their own...

    at times I consider exactly how insignificant I am in the grand scheme of things, that the fact that I'm a tiny living thing on a tiny planet around a small star in a vast galaxy doesn't matter at all... that whatever meaning my actions have is just assigned by years of human behavior and that we've just overcomplicated things to the point where we think that we can buy a meaning and we work tirelessly and wear ourselves out for a lifetime just to try and buy some meaning to our lives because of what?

    but then there's the empowering side... there may not be a meaning to our existence, but we can make one... life is what you make of it and the universe is AWESOME!
    Keep me searching for a heart of Gold.

  7. #17
    Google "chemtrails" Bush Did 9/11's Avatar
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    It's optimistic for me. I prefer a philosophy that highlights our own agency, control, power, and ability to influence.
    J. Scott Crothers
    aka "Bush Did 9/11"
    Founder, Truthtology, est. 1952
    Prophet and Channel, God Almighty
    Author, the Holy scripture Elevenetics

    "Just as jet fuel cannot melt steel beams, so too cannot the unshakeable pillars of Truthtology ever be shaken, whether by man, nature, or evidence."
    - Elevenetics
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  8. #18
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jscrothers View Post
    It's optimistic for me. I prefer a philosophy that highlights our own agency, control, power, and ability to influence.
    It can be pessimistic in so far that it recognises our faults, failings and limitations just as much, at least any honest humanism would, realising the "human, all too human" nature of most decisions and motivations.

    Like in the post Freud, Marx and Nietzsche world you've got to be skeptical about most things.

  9. #19
    alchemist Legion's Avatar
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    I'm finding it difficult to find explanations of what humanism is exactly, but I don't like the sound of it. It seems to place humans at the centre of the universe, ignoring that we are a small part of what happens. It seems to view things in a very restrictive manner, so that only a particular way of seeing things is correct - that we should focus on humanity in a literal sense, and for some reason perhaps also scientific evidence.

    Opposed to this, I think it is wise to realise how small we are in everything, and to understand that wisdom and knowledge can take many different forms, that don't necessarily focus on things such as pictures of humans or of scientific methodology.

    I think to the humanist, humanism would seem optimistic. Breaking from the chains of oppression and realising human freedom and the cultivation of what is seen as proper understanding. To the non-humanist the doctrine would perhaps seem very limiting, and ignorant of the range of what is out there.

  10. #20
    Google "chemtrails" Bush Did 9/11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    It can be pessimistic in so far that it recognises our faults, failings and limitations just as much, at least any honest humanism would, realising the "human, all too human" nature of most decisions and motivations.
    For this, I go by the old adage that "The truth shall set you free -- but, at first, it'll piss you off." Something like that. Perhaps, here, I'd replace 'truth' with 'idea' and 'piss you off' with 'make you question everything.'

    I can see some pessimism in it, too. Humanism allows us to be free agents, for sure; but exactly how much freedom and control do we have? In that way, it's more optimistic to believe that we have a higher power on our side that will help our environment give it the nudge it needs for us to press it forward.
    J. Scott Crothers
    aka "Bush Did 9/11"
    Founder, Truthtology, est. 1952
    Prophet and Channel, God Almighty
    Author, the Holy scripture Elevenetics

    "Just as jet fuel cannot melt steel beams, so too cannot the unshakeable pillars of Truthtology ever be shaken, whether by man, nature, or evidence."
    - Elevenetics

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