I posted on this islam extremists youtube page and the responses i got..

[INTP]

So here is the op, which i aimed at potential new extremists(which the guy anjem choudary pretty much tries to recruit), so that they would think again about this stuff and maybe change their minds:

First of all i want to say that i am not an Muslim(or Christian), but i do see symbolic truth in Islam(and also more or less in other religions) and in fact believe that Mohammed received the word of God(or Allah, Eli, Eliah, Eloi, Elohim or what name you prefer for the One that cant be named), even tho my belief of God isnt identical with Islam, i respect freedom of belief, good moral standards, therefore i dont see myself as an an enemy of Islam.
I think that sharia law aims for good of people who follow it, therefore i cant say that it is evil in any way.

However i would want to ask a question and i would prefer the answer from someone who has studied Quran in great detail, who is able to answer my questions in politically correct manner and whose answer would be respected by other Muslims.

First of all, i know that some, but definitely not all will see me as an enemy of Islam only because im not Muslim myself. Where does this sort of idea originate from? Because i know that Quran says that it is okay to fight the enemies of Islam, but i havent been able to find any information abut Quran defining an enemy of Islam as everyone who are not Muslims. So doesent this mean that it is just an human interpretation of Quran, not an actual word of God? And if it is an human interpretation of it and not an actual word of God and Quran also condemns killing of the innocent. Wouldnt this mean that the acts of violence done by some fundamentalist Muslims should be condemned by those who follow the true word of Allah? Also if these fundamentalists doing acts of violence against innocent people do go against the word of God and they bring bad name to Islam in the eyes of others and therefore do harm for the religion, shouldnt they be considered as the enemies of Islam by those who follow the actual word of God?

On slightly other topic, i am interested on why the sharia law should be implemented in UK or other countries on people who are not Muslims? I would be for the idea that the sharia law should be legal to implement with Muslims(who allow it for themselves). However im against the idea that i(or others unwilling) would be obligated to follow sharia law.

Just to clarify, that guy wants to have sharia law in UK and then in the whole world.

I dont really believe 100% in all i said or at least i didnt say the whole truth of my views, because i wanted it to be more convincing.

And the responses i get.. oh god. First of all its been 4 months since i posted this and no replies from muslims. Instead i get stuff like this:

There is no freedom under Islam, if you believe in freedom of belief you won't find it in Islam.

If you would be at least a shred intelligent as you think you are, then you would know you're asking a wrong person.

Fuck off raghead go fuck your goat

The only reason the americans invaded your fucked nations is because islam thinks that they should rule the world and you attack and rape your own people and the countrys that are being attacked by you 3rd world rats, the american turn around and say "Oh well this isn't good, we should help them" so they did, you fucks need to relise that you will never take the world, your religion is uneducated and immature, what is your plan, while you ragheads go in your little tinny boats planning to invade the superpower countrys with your 3rd world country weaponry what are you going to do when australian, russian, american, chinese bombers blow your towel off your head , wait until the united nations give up on you and as soon as that happens, Australia,America, Japan, New Zealand major troop movements will start to go into play and tell me what is physically going to stop there invasion forces from killing you 3rd world scum, tell me what advantages against our army's

^that particular aussie boy(yes his acco really is aussie boy) has profile photo where he is posing with a gun in soldiers uniform.

Your a goof and id punch your fucking teeth out of your mouth fgor what you just said.. state where you stay or i will track you down and find you.. your choice speak and reveal who you are terrorist.. I should stone you to death and cut you hand off for stealing jesus light away from our countries.. perhaps cut your head off these people need to all be banned from our countries and never allowed here.. he who dare shall have there heads cut off how about that! No wait we are human and have souls.. unlike you animals, sick fucks!

Seriously, its no wonder that people are turning into fundamentalism when the world is filled with retards like this..

I just wanted to post this so that you guys could see hat muslims have to deal with in their lives, that people saying this sort of stuff is exactly why the popularity of extremism in islam in gaining strength in other countries than just muslim countries. And that you could see that saying this sort of stuff really is the wrong way dealing with this, when people should spread understanding and love, not ignorance and hatred..

 

[laterlazer]

You did say it was youtube. There are too many dicks there for me to be surprised at this. I swear it's all brain-dead idiots and gross humans that reside there. Always always offensive stuff coming from youtube commenters.

 

[INTP]

You did say it was youtube. There are too many dicks there for me to be surprised at this. I swear it's all brain-dead idiots and gross humans that reside there. Always always offensive stuff coming from youtube commenters.

True, but its still pretty stupid to further provoke people to extremism in someone channel(posted this on the guys profile, not as a comment to some video) who already tries to lure potential extremists with his stuff. I mean if those things would have been said on some forum like this with not many muslims(and most likely no extremists), it would had been bit different thing, but to say those things somewhere where potential extremists navigate to is just plain retarded, especially if you dont want people turning into jihadists..

Would be interesting to hear [MENTION=3325]Mole[/MENTION] 's rambling about this

 

[Mole]

Would be interesting to hear [MENTION=3325]Mole[/MENTION] 's rambling about this

It is plain the West does not turn anyone into a jihadist. Rather jihad is a religious duty of muslims, and Islamic preachers and Islamic internet propagandists recruit muslims to fight jihad.

 

[INTP]

It is plain the West does not turn anyone into a jihadist. Rather jihad is a religious duty of muslims, and Islamic preachers and Islamic internet propagandists recruit muslims to fight jihad.

But isnt it largely fueled by hatred nowadays, which westeners provoke muslims into?

 

[Mole]

But isnt it largely fueled by hatred nowadays, which westeners provoke muslims into?

As you probably know, this is what muslims themselves claim. They claim the West provokes muslims to commit acts of terrorism against civilians.

A good example of this is the terrorist attack on the cartoonists of Charlie Hebdo.

Many muslims across the world now claim that the cartoonists of Charlie Hebdo provoked muslims into slaughtering the cartoonists in their own office.

It's called blaming the victim.

The psychology is interesting in that we hate those we have harmed, and so it seems natural to blame the victims for the harm.

It is in fact an elegant psychological defence, and without the slightest shred of integrity.

 

[INTP]

As you probably know, this is what muslims themselves claim. They claim the West provokes muslims to commit acts of terrorism against civilians.

A good example of this is the terrorist attack on the cartoonists of Charlie Hebdo.

Many muslims across the world now claim that the cartoonists of Charlie Hebdo provoked muslims into slaughtering the cartoonists in their own office.

It's called blaming the victim.

The psychology is interesting in that we hate those we have harmed, and so it seems natural to blame the victims for the harm.

It is in fact an elegant psychological defence, and without the slightest shred of integrity.

But muslims arent just one big group. I mean there are some really sick cults that are following christian beliefs, but interpret bible in other hand very literally, but also in their own sick way. Similarly there are muslims like that. I think one big problem about all of this is exactly that non muslims think to see sick extremists who resort into terrorism as equal to your everyday muslims who lives morally better life than 90% of of christians.
Now when young and spiritually confused youngsters in western countries are being told that they are rag head terrorist pieces of shit, hatred starts to bottle up inside of them. Now when they hear of a concept of jihad and hear justifications for it from extremists over the internet, they arent capable of making rational decisions and are misguided by possibly some terrorist recruiter(or someone who basically does that, but not a real recruiter).
If you look at for example what i wrote(in the form of a question, but really i already knew the answer, i just wanted to make some people think about it) at op about how some extremist muslims viewing one verse of quran where it says something about beheading the enemies of islam as "all non muslims are enemies of islam and therefore should be converted or beheaded", even tho it really doesent say who is the enemy of islam and was meant more like if christians attack(remember this was hundreds of years ago) and try to kill all muslims to eradicate islam, then muslims would be allowed by god to defend themselves even by the means of killing. Killing people is not allowed other ways any more than it is for christians, and muslims follow old and new testament as words of god, even tho they recognize the fact that it has been twisted over the years and therefore not to be read word to word like quran, which still is in its original form. Really only difference is that muslims doesent view jesus as god, but as a prophet and messenger of god, so jesus is a holy man for them as much as mohammed or abraham is.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

I think that those who study religion state the the Quran holds some violent tenets, which is the followers followed it accurately, they could be participating in what most consider to be violent thinking or action.

Whereas the tenets of Christianity, if one were following it accurately, would hold to a more 'love your neighbor as yourself' non-violent mentality.

But I am not an expert on the Quran.

 

[INTP]

I think that those who study religion state the the Quran holds some violent tenets, which is the followers followed it accurately, they could be participating in what most consider to be violent thinking or action.

Whereas the tenets of Christianity, if one were following it accurately, would hold to a more 'love your neighbor as yourself' non-violent mentality.

But I am not an expert on the Quran.

Well what you need to know essentially about islam is that they believe in old testament and new testament as christians do(but like i mentioned they recognize the fact that they have been altered over the time), so they believe in 10 commands like christians do. Quran doesent justify killing except few verses that talk about self defence against non muslims who are "enemies of islam" and stuff like that, this whole justifying killing people based on that verse who for example draw caricatures of allah(like that guy who made the charlie hebdo drawings), is just all human interpretation about this. Its no different than sick cult type of interpretations of old testament or what ever that causes some christian cults to commit horrible things.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

I have heard from a reputable source that their allah is an unapproachable sort of god whom they must do things like suicide bombing to get the attention of, or to get into heaven.

 

[Riva]

I have heard from a reputable source that their allah is an unapproachable sort of god whom they must do things like suicide bombing to get the attention of, or to get into heaven.

No I think that's the old testament god you are confusing him with. I mean Jesus's father.

tehe

 

[sprinkles]

"Posted ... YouTube"

All I needed to know.

 

[Passacaglia]

Seriously, its no wonder that people are turning into fundamentalism when the world is filled with retards like this..

Yeah, it's sad how many people don't realize how hatred is one big feedback loop.

"Posted ... YouTube"

All I needed to know.

Also yes. The term 'lowest common denominator' comes to mind when reading YouTube comments.

 

[Lark]

I dont think people are influenced by shit online.

 

[Chthonic]

I dont think people are influenced by shit online.

I think people are influenced by many things. Most of all influenced heavily by an emotionally fearful state and then it becomes a fight or flight situation in their own minds. Once there nearly anything seems justifiable. Any ideology that offers to control everyone else for me, so I can feel better, is an ideology I steer clear away from. Plenty of those to be found in every direction and corner of the globe in a great many area's of life.

Somehow, humanity is still of a mindset that forcing everyone into the same box is the ultimate objective.

 

[Lark]

I think people are influenced by many things. Most of all influenced heavily by an emotionally fearful state and then it becomes a fight or flight situation in their own minds. Once there nearly anything seems justifiable. Any ideology that offers to control everyone else for me, so I can feel better, is an ideology I steer clear away from. Plenty of those to be found in every direction and corner of the globe in a great many area's of life.

Somehow, humanity is still of a mindset that forcing everyone into the same box is the ultimate objective.

Totalitarianism of any description is wrong, its not essentially the coercion and threat of police states and that kind of thing.

Even if it were on a individual scale, just one single individual choosing to submit themselves by themselves to totalising strictures, its usually a demanding process which can backfire totally and utterly driving the individual in question crazy.

So I figure that a lot of individuals who seek to introduce it all on a collective basis are not able to conform to their own demanding strictures and they know it so they wind up trying to control others to compensate for their own knowledge or suspiscions and doubts about themselves.

Its individually and socially destructive but that's if you're even dealing with someone who is rational or reasonable at all, most of it is all fuelled by hatred or emoting anyway. Loved in groups and hated out groups. A total waste of time talking to any of them or attempting to open a dialogue with any of them.

I used to think differently about that, I posted lots of counter points online for the attention of people I figured hadnt thought their beliefs out, figured that even if they were unreachable then some randomer who may see it could think twice. It was all a waste of time, I believe, now, and those were just your common or garden liberals and not proper bad guys like most of those jihadists are.

 

[grey_beard]

So here is the op, which i aimed at potential new extremists(which the guy anjem choudary pretty much tries to recruit), so that they would think again about this stuff and maybe change their minds:



Just to clarify, that guy wants to have sharia law in UK and then in the whole world.

I dont really believe 100% in all i said or at least i didnt say the whole truth of my views, because i wanted it to be more convincing.

And the responses i get.. oh god. First of all its been 4 months since i posted this and no replies from muslims. Instead i get stuff like this:






^that particular aussie boy(yes his acco really is aussie boy) has profile photo where he is posing with a gun in soldiers uniform.



Seriously, its no wonder that people are turning into fundamentalism when the world is filled with retards like this..

I just wanted to post this so that you guys could see hat muslims have to deal with in their lives, that people saying this sort of stuff is exactly why the popularity of extremism in islam in gaining strength in other countries than just muslim countries. And that you could see that saying this sort of stuff really is the wrong way dealing with this, when people should spread understanding and love, not ignorance and hatred..

Hmm, perhaps you fail at trolling here. There is also a long-standing history not only of violence against non-Muslims; but of violence between Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims : neither of whom are "non-Muslims" so that situation acts as a control variable, as it were.

Further, the idea of a monolithic hatred of Muslims by the outside world is utterly laughable: from President Obama saying "The future must not belong to those who insult the prophet"
(source: Remarks by the President to the UN General Assembly | The White House) in his official capacity as President, to the deliberate blind eye turned by authorities in Yorkshire to the sexual abuse and torture of pubescent girls by Pakistani immigrants (e.g. teenage girls being doused with petrol and threatened with being burned alive if they told others of their sexual abuse)...not to mention the deafening silence from women's rights activists about forced clitorectomies...
or to mention the Islamists in Iran executing homosexuals by hanging, or by throwing them off of buildings. For some reason, the American left prefers to pelt Catholic Bishops with condoms, rather than confront open, explicit, filmed executions of homosexuals.

Or, if you want to control for the variable of *time*...recall that Islam started in the 600s. Prapagandists or know-nothings like to portray the Crusades as wild-eyed fanatical Christians laying waste to peaceful Muslims seeking only to mind their own business-- when in fact the situation was nearly the exact *opposite*: Islam was founded in (roughly) AD 600 in the Middle East: and yet, recall that the Muslims were defeated *militarily* in FRANCE -- quite far away from the Middle East -- in the Battle of Tours in 732. (Thank you Charles Martel !)
In other words, about 300 years after the sack of Rome by the Visigoths, the Muslims were trying to take over France. Long, long before the Crusades.

And recall also, nearly a THOUSAND years later, the Ottoman Empire (again, Muslim) nearly overran VIENNA -- you know, home at one time or another, to Brahms, Beethoven, Haydn, and Mozart -- in 1683, being stopped by the Poles (thank you Jan Sobieski !)

Let that sink in, mmm'kay?

732 -- the Muslims have taken Spain and nearly overrun France.
1683 -- the Muslims nearly overrun Vienna. This is AFTER, for instance, Columbus, AFTER Martin Luther, AFTER Shakespeare, AFTER the Pilgrims land a Plymouth Rock.
Aw, Hell, get this. AFTER the founding of Harvard. Yes, the *real* Harvard.


Oh -- you might also want to note. ISIS/ISIL taking captives as ransom, is hardly a new thing in Islam. You may recall -- or not -- the US Marine Corps anthem...
"From the halls of Montezuma
to the shores of Tripoli..."

That latter, the shores of Tripoli -- refers to the Barbary Pirates.

These were pirates of Muslim outposts in Northern Africa, who captured merchant vessels and ransomed or sold the crews as slaves. In 1795, Algeria ransomed 115 captured Americans, for over $1 *million*. Yes, in 1795 dollars. This was about 1/6 of the entire US government budget at the time.
The continuing, hmm, "peskiness" of the Barbary states, was what led to the formation of the US Navy.

One or two more tidbits.

In March 1785, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams went to London to negotiate with Tripoli's envoy, Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman (or Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja). When they enquired "concerning the ground of the pretensions to make war upon nations who had done them no injury", the ambassador replied:

It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every mussulman who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise.

Ummm. Yeah.

THAT Thomas Jefferson.
You know, The Declaration of Independence, "We hold these truths to be self evident..." and all that stuff.

Hardly a Medieval dead-and-gone thing.

NOTE: some of this material was copied from Wikipedia (The details on the Barbary Pirates, for example, tho' I knew of their existence and Jefferson having dealt with them, on my own); some paraphrased, some knowledge of my own.

 

[indra]

Yeah, it's sad how many people don't realize how hatred is one big feedback loop.

And yet, you do not cut the audio in a performance. You dampen a string. You rock your body back. You turn the gain down from 11.

But the show must go on.

 

[grey_beard]

I think people are influenced by many things. Most of all influenced heavily by an emotionally fearful state and then it becomes a fight or flight situation in their own minds. Once there nearly anything seems justifiable. Any ideology that offers to control everyone else for me, so I can feel better, is an ideology I steer clear away from. Plenty of those to be found in every direction and corner of the globe in a great many area's of life.

Somehow, humanity is still of a mindset that forcing everyone into the same box is the ultimate objective.

Good point on the fearful state: I don't know quite how to say this tactfully, but...
given that jihadist are, ummm, *terrorists*.
Doesn't that imply the possibility that they go around recruiting others in their own neighborhoods or cities or countries, by terrorizing their own neighbors?
("Go attack the Americans or we will kill *your* family!")

And -- given things like "The Hatfields and the McCoys" (blood feuds in the older United States) -- is it possible some of the violence is a larger form of that, in countries
with extended families, and clans, and the honor of the family being all important?

...and, that old standby, many young men without meaningful life prospects. That's the charge leveled so often at members of the US military (as John Kerry said, "You know, education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq.") So maybe the same thing happens in other places: if you're born in the right place, you have connections; otherwise...well, what other choice do you have?

 

[INTP]

Hmm, perhaps you fail at trolling here. There is also a long-standing history not only of violence against non-Muslims; but of violence between Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims : neither of whom are "non-Muslims" so that situation acts as a control variable, as it were.

Further, the idea of a monolithic hatred of Muslims by the outside world is utterly laughable: from President Obama saying "The future must not belong to those who insult the prophet"
(source: Remarks by the President to the UN General Assembly | The White House) in his official capacity as President, to the deliberate blind eye turned by authorities in Yorkshire to the sexual abuse and torture of pubescent girls by Pakistani immigrants (e.g. teenage girls being doused with petrol and threatened with being burned alive if they told others of their sexual abuse)...not to mention the deafening silence from women's rights activists about forced clitorectomies...
or to mention the Islamists in Iran executing homosexuals by hanging, or by throwing them off of buildings. For some reason, the American left prefers to pelt Catholic Bishops with condoms, rather than confront open, explicit, filmed executions of homosexuals.

Or, if you want to control for the variable of *time*...recall that Islam started in the 600s. Prapagandists or know-nothings like to portray the Crusades as wild-eyed fanatical Christians laying waste to peaceful Muslims seeking only to mind their own business-- when in fact the situation was nearly the exact *opposite*: Islam was founded in (roughly) AD 600 in the Middle East: and yet, recall that the Muslims were defeated *militarily* in FRANCE -- quite far away from the Middle East -- in the Battle of Tours in 732. (Thank you Charles Martel !)
In other words, about 300 years after the sack of Rome by the Visigoths, the Muslims were trying to take over France. Long, long before the Crusades.

And recall also, nearly a THOUSAND years later, the Ottoman Empire (again, Muslim) nearly overran VIENNA -- you know, home at one time or another, to Brahms, Beethoven, Haydn, and Mozart -- in 1683, being stopped by the Poles (thank you Jan Sobieski !)

Let that sink in, mmm'kay?

732 -- the Muslims have taken Spain and nearly overrun France.
1683 -- the Muslims nearly overrun Vienna. This is AFTER, for instance, Columbus, AFTER Martin Luther, AFTER Shakespeare, AFTER the Pilgrims land a Plymouth Rock.
Aw, Hell, get this. AFTER the founding of Harvard. Yes, the *real* Harvard.


Oh -- you might also want to note. ISIS/ISIL taking captives as ransom, is hardly a new thing in Islam. You may recall -- or not -- the US Marine Corps anthem...
"From the halls of Montezuma
to the shores of Tripoli..."

That latter, the shores of Tripoli -- refers to the Barbary Pirates.

These were pirates of Muslim outposts in Northern Africa, who captured merchant vessels and ransomed or sold the crews as slaves. In 1795, Algeria ransomed 115 captured Americans, for over $1 *million*. Yes, in 1795 dollars. This was about 1/6 of the entire US government budget at the time.
The continuing, hmm, "peskiness" of the Barbary states, was what led to the formation of the US Navy.

One or two more tidbits.

In March 1785, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams went to London to negotiate with Tripoli's envoy, Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman (or Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja). When they enquired "concerning the ground of the pretensions to make war upon nations who had done them no injury", the ambassador replied:

It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every mussulman who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise.

Ummm. Yeah.

THAT Thomas Jefferson.
You know, The Declaration of Independence, "We hold these truths to be self evident..." and all that stuff.

Hardly a Medieval dead-and-gone thing.

NOTE: some of this material was copied from Wikipedia (The details on the Barbary Pirates, for example, tho' I knew of their existence and Jefferson having dealt with them, on my own); some paraphrased, some knowledge of my own.

I dont have a slightest clue what your point is. But the violence is not religious by nature, its cultural. Christians have done equally bad(if not worse) things in the past than muslims have, so talking about history makes no sense either. Also not all muslims are alike, just like not all who believe in jesus are alike(reading between the lines it looks as if you are trying to over generalize the muslim population).