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  1. #11
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDog View Post
    No, it is an observation about my own tendencies in evaluating historical figures as opposed to people I know.

    I judge historical figures based mainly on whether their life trajectory was useful or not, along with a healthy dose of whether or not they made sense to me.

    This isn't to do with my own life, where I resist rationalization on the basis that it leads one to become unmoored from the restraints of social bonds, and thus free to commit all kinds of evil acts without it really sinking in very well.

    But does that hold true after the fact for famous individuals? Just because rationalization would be bad for me in the first person, does that also mean it is bad for others viewing from the future and in the third person?
    I'm unimpressed with "history will be my judge" and uber mensch-unter mensch thinking.

  2. #12
    Senior Member BlackDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm unimpressed with "history will be my judge" and uber mensch-unter mensch thinking.
    It happens, though. Take the American Founding fathers. Glorified constantly. Had they lost, they'd be given a footnote, and people would give the 'balanced' view that the colonists did have grievances, but that they were short-sighted and not taking the viewpoint of Great Britain into account (which they weren't), and that there were still legal means to go about their goals.

    The only reason anyone cares is because they won.

    I can almost guarantee that, because it is kind of what is taught in Australia, if I'm not mistaken, about a bunch of miners who rebelled unsuccessfully. @Mole Your input?

    Read this if interested: Eureka Rebellion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Formerly Lion4!5

  3. #13
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDog View Post
    It happens, though. Take the American Founding fathers. Glorified constantly. Had they lost, they'd be given a footnote, and people would give the 'balanced' view that the colonists did have grievances, but that they were short-sighted and not taking the viewpoint of Great Britain into account (which they weren't), and that there were still legal means to go about their goals.

    The only reason anyone cares is because they won.

    I can almost guarantee that, because it is kind of what is taught in Australia, if I'm not mistaken, about a bunch of miners who rebelled unsuccessfully. @Mole Your input?

    Read this if interested: Eureka Rebellion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The Left try to valorise rebellion in Australia. However no rebellion succeeded. And we have had no revolution.

    Perhaps our signal political change occurred in 1948 when we were given the choice of Social Democracy or Liberal Democracy. And we voted for Liberal Democracy. And we have remained Liberal Democratic on both sides of Parliament ever since. Fortunately history has shown we made the right decision.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDog View Post
    It happens, though. Take the American Founding fathers. Glorified constantly. Had they lost, they'd be given a footnote, and people would give the 'balanced' view that the colonists did have grievances, but that they were short-sighted and not taking the viewpoint of Great Britain into account (which they weren't), and that there were still legal means to go about their goals.

    The only reason anyone cares is because they won.

    I can almost guarantee that, because it is kind of what is taught in Australia, if I'm not mistaken, about a bunch of miners who rebelled unsuccessfully. @Mole Your input?

    Read this if interested: Eureka Rebellion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    History is written by the victors.

    I am completely influenced by the modern day skeptics like Marx and Freud but it sounds more like you are driving in the same direction as Nietzsche which I think is mistaken, there are ways to interpret Nietzsche which are not monsterous, just as there are ways of interpreting Machavelli in the same way and his reverence for Roman pagan culture, with it reverence for deified Fortune but the up shots of them are the great men of history and that monsterous creed has lead and leads to monsterous deeds. That is certain.

    I believe evil is evil, no ends justify the means, means are ends and bound up so that evil means result in evil ends.
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  5. #15
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    The Left try to valorise rebellion in Australia. However no rebellion succeeded. And we have had no revolution.

    Perhaps our signal political change occurred in 1948 when we were given the choice of Social Democracy or Liberal Democracy. And we voted for Liberal Democracy. And we have remained Liberal Democratic on both sides of Parliament ever since. Fortunately history has shown we made the right decision.
    History will judge eh? Who writes history?

    There are rebellions and revolutions all the time, the world over, sometimes they happen in slow motion and people dont even recognise them for what they are, they are all performed by elites, whose hands are strengthened on generation after the next by time, and their hench men or PR men in politics with ideologies like neo-liberalism and capitalism.

  6. #16
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDog
    Is that because there are few enough of these individuals that making exceptions of them wouldn't break down group norms?
    No, I just prefer to look at the totality of an individual's life. Martin Luther King was a serial adulterer but the damage caused by this behavior pales in comparison to the good that he did.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    No, I just prefer to look at the totality of an individual's life. Martin Luther King was a serial adulterer but the damage caused by this behavior pales in comparison to the good that he did.
    That is interesting, a different point to I think the one the OP was making though.

    I remember an old chain mail e-mail which went around which had three character profiles, one was churchill, portrayed as a drunk, one was roosevelt, who had experimented with opium I think, and one was Hitler, a dutiful patriot, asking you which you would choose and only revealing their identities after the fact.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    [...] there are ways to interpret Nietzsche which are not monsterous [...]
    Indeed, all the non-idiotic ways.
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