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  1. #51
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inis Mona View Post
    The evidence is that the morality is completly based on our own subjective view of reality and created based on one sided and rigid view points.
    I'm sorry, what morality? My subjective view of reality? Me personally or are you suggesting that each individual invents a moral code for themselves? In what way is it rigid and one sided?

    Kiling people is bad, but kiling a killer is good, because we have a moral justification for kiling people who kill people... think of it for a while...just wtf?!
    Hmm, the implication is that killing can not be justified am I correct? Well, that can be consistently viewed as a prohibition upon capital punishment or the death penalty, if that is what you are meaning, although it is not clear what you are meaning, you could be discussing revenge or retaliation by private individuals, a duel perhaps?

    It is perhaps a separate topic but I would say that I can conceive of situations in which killing would be justified, if the grievance was sufficient, if an individual was causing sufficient harm to others, including killing, that others need to intervene, the authorities or some properly constituted and legal group with the monopoly on force preferably but that can be a bit idealistic sometimes.

  2. #52
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    It is human to be good and evil just like it is human to have the conscious and the unconscious.

    The Greeks had the morally pure Apollo, and the unrestrained, instinctive Dionysus, who together embodied the never ending struggle between the thing which seeks to control, and the unapprehended.

    Conscious morality says 'Thou shalt not', while the unconscious tempts 'Thou shalt'.

    Which god favors thee?

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inis Mona View Post
    the view of the reality can be subjective, because its view can be completly a work of our own imgination
    This is true, it may be the case, we may be a brain swiming around disembodied in a tank, however, it is both improbable and unlikely.

    On the other hand, the view that subjectivity prevails is more likely to be a consequence or legacy of Descartes' philosophy, his "I think, therefore I am", responding to the fresh doubts in his day about whether any individual could trust their senses given knowledge of refraction and other such instances of things not being as they seem, by building all up from the subjective, individual thinker.

    From there its a hop, skip and jump to concluding that all is individual and social construction.

    Although the earlier knowledge of there being a cosmic order existing independently of mans apprehension or comprehension of it makes more sense to me, there is cause and effect, there are consequences and there is objectivity.

    Now, this can be difficult, particularly when complexity is involved rather than simpler, sometimes singular, understandings upon which consensus prevails but simply because something is difficult, demanding and defies an easy understanding should not be conflated with impossible.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evee View Post
    It is human to be good and evil just like it is human to have the conscious and the unconscious.

    The Greeks had the morally pure Apollo, and the unrestrained, instinctive Dionysus, who together embodied the never ending struggle between the thing which seeks to control, and the unapprehended.

    Conscious morality says 'Thou shalt not', while the unconscious tempts 'Thou shalt'.

    Which god favor's thee?
    Dionysus was the God of tits and wine wasnt he? I remember reading something about him resembling old nick in his appearence.

    I am not sure that morality is conscious and immorality unconscious, perhaps it is but even in Freud's model of conscious and unconscious it is tripartite, ego, id and then the superego which is uber moralising. That is to say that the unconscious could be a moralising force, not simply seeking permission, it could be exacting conflicts and compelling sanctions upon temptation too.

    Personally I think that morality is not all negative, its not all about shalt, it could be shall, Jesus was less shalt, less legalistic, more thy shall but his direction was very demanding in the shalls or shoulds.

  5. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm sorry, what morality? My subjective view of reality? Me personally or are you suggesting that each individual invents a moral code for themselves? In what way is it rigid and one sided?
    I don't think everyone builds their own moral structures, because however morialy independent we desire to be, morality includes well being of other people around us and therefor will always be influenced by the external circumstances. What I am saying is, that our social and general view and opinion on morality is subjective, it's not a subjectivity of the individual, but it's a subjective of the society as the whole.. You may argue that if something is shared in the external reality, it can not be subjective, but in every society there are different, or at least slightly not similar moral, or ethical norms and exceptions of behavioral codex, that can't be met among all the members of society. For example, when slavery was still legal, you were marked as immoral, or disturbed if you fell in love, or made a friendship with african american and these people were viewed as the lowest class of society. Nowdays, thinking like that would probably get you into pretty big troubles and made you seem absolutly immoral in the eyes of the majority. That's why I am saying morality is subjective and aslo dependant on patterns and trends within a culture.
    Hmm, the implication is that killing can not be justified am I correct? Well, that can be consistently viewed as a prohibition upon capital punishment or the death penalty, if that is what you are meaning, although it is not clear what you are meaning, you could be discussing revenge or retaliation by private individuals, a duel perhaps?
    No, my implification is, that our morality is so contradictory, that killing of one and a killing of one are not put on the same relevance. We justify killing by killing, therefor justify evel with evil to create good, which would work if this would be math and we would deduct two negative numbers to get a positive one, but I think it doesn't work that way when it comes to ethics.
    It is perhaps a separate topic but I would say that I can conceive of situations in which killing would be justified, if the grievance was sufficient, if an individual was causing sufficient harm to others, including killing, that others need to intervene, the authorities or some properly constituted and legal group with the monopoly on force preferably but that can be a bit idealistic sometimes.
    Imagine a story of a killer. A guy who grew up in a family with abusive father who had raped his mother several times. This guy decided, that he won't tolerate father's abusive behavior and as very young child he killed him in his sleep to protect his mother. The mother couldn't ever fully recovered from the psychologically disturbing marriage and became a victim of a long term depression, mental issues and this son had to take care of her. Because of the anger he felt for his father and the injustice that has been done to his family, he decided to kill everyone, every man who reminds him of his father. Now who's the real victim and who's the real killer?

  6. #56
    Senior Member danseen's Avatar
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    Evil doesnt exist....
    Good result (vs. Soton)...still have to go #Arsene

    Tengo los conocimientos estardiar....no hay un motivo para estar al tanto de la reunión que sucedió hace mucho tiempo ....

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inis Mona View Post
    the view of the reality can be subjective, because its view can be completly a work of our own imgination
    The work of children is play and the purpose of play is to learn the difference between reality and imagination.

    So to complete one of our most important life tasks is to complete the life task of play.

    But we only have to read the posts on Central to know that this life task for many is incomplete.
    Likes Fay liked this post

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evee View Post
    It is human to be good and evil just like it is human to have the conscious and the unconscious.

    The Greeks had the morally pure Apollo, and the unrestrained, instinctive Dionysus, who together embodied the never ending struggle between the thing which seeks to control, and the unapprehended.

    Conscious morality says 'Thou shalt not', while the unconscious tempts 'Thou shalt'.

    Which god favors thee?
    Those who were lucky enough to have parents who practised the helping mode of child rearing can trust their own unconscious to lead in the direction of empathy and creativity.

    But those who were unlucky enough to have parents who were authoritarian or abusive, will discover an unconsious which they can't trust to be empathic and creative.

    Popular culture talks about being overcome by our 'demons'. Well, our 'demons' are the results of authoritarian or abusive child rearing.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Those who were lucky enough to have parents who practised the helping mode of child rearing can trust their own unconscious to lead in the direction of empathy and creativity.

    But those who were unlucky enough to have parents who were authoritarian or abusive, will discover an unconsious which they can't trust to be empathic and creative.

    Popular culture talks about being overcome by our 'demons'. Well, our 'demons' are the results of authoritarian or abusive child rearing.
    You're right, Mole.
    Likes Mole liked this post

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evee View Post
    It is human to be good and evil just like it is human to have the conscious and the unconscious.

    The Greeks had the morally pure Apollo, and the unrestrained, instinctive Dionysus, who together embodied the never ending struggle between the thing which seeks to control, and the unapprehended.

    Conscious morality says 'Thou shalt not', while the unconscious tempts 'Thou shalt'.

    Which god favors thee?
    I'm scared.

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