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View Poll Results: What Religion Do You Practice/Not Practice and Why?

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  • I'm an atheist

    36 27.48%
  • I'm agnostic

    25 19.08%
  • Buddhism

    6 4.58%
  • Hinduism

    1 0.76%
  • Islam

    2 1.53%
  • Christianity

    39 29.77%
  • Other

    22 16.79%
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  1. #431
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    You're getting emotional about this.
    I feel basically nothing right now (thank you mental problems).


    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    I'm just making logical arguments. You just want to ignore certain logical realities in order to persist in your beliefs. In other words, you prefer ignorance.
    A. And they have a barb, as always. B. This proves my point of saying you back-peddle after you make a jab. Happens every time. That's why I and many people react poorly to you at first, or in some cases continuously. The way someone speaks and approaches things matters heavily to me. I'm sure you've noticed me jumping down peoples throats for communicating incorrectly/rudely many times in the past.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    That's fine. You don't have to engage me. But, my goals are merely to show the logical beginnings and ends of strains of thought. That's it.
    And I pointed out that it was a derail and a distraction. As I said in the previous post, you seem to want to show that atheists have beliefs. Sure, whatever, everyone has beliefs and delusions. We need them. At the same token, that doesn't invalidate or somehow make wrong the views atheists have, because those beliefs that atheists and everyone else has has nothing to do with the reasons for being atheist in the first place. It's a moot point, which is why I said it was a meaningless distinction and dismissed your comment.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    No need to try to claim I have nefarious motives.
    I'll take your word for it because this reply actually isn't barbed for once except for the first few lines.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    The bottom line is that you can dish it out but you can't take it.
    I hate debating, I don't enjoy it. It gets stuck into semantic arguments that should be obvious and it just irritates the piss out of me that things get drilled into minuta and misses the big picture. If you don't think I can't take the heat and don't like conflict though, then you really have not been paying attention to what I do on here over the past few years.

    I'm also not the only one who reacts poorly to you when you enter subjects and debates like this, so I am very disinclined to think the problem lies solely with me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    You actually want to argue that you don't have a sense of superiority? Really? Really? Really?
    Nope, I don't want to argue it. If you want to think I do though in this area, have at it. I honestly don't care.
    Last edited by Hard; 11-11-2015 at 03:25 AM. Reason: added link to video
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  2. #432
    Senior Member geedoenfj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    No. It does not. Atheism is not a belief system. It is the absence of one.

    As for proof, it is the absence of proof that is the basis for not subscribing to any sort of belief system.






    Theories are not generated or made without a lot of evidence and backing, just because they can be proven wrong by the advent of new evidence, doesn't make them invalid or unworthy.




    Notice the bold. That is how you feel, so it is an individualistic stance that isn't supported. Just because you personally don't think it's logical, doesn't mean that it is actually logical.

    Science doesn't currently know where the universe came from. There are some working theories (it's outside of my field so I am not entirely familar with their details), but they aren't well supported yet, and thus not well regarded until new evidence comes to light. That's ok.
    Man! we share the same MBIT type we're supposed to stand for each other here.. you just broke my heart [emoji174] [emoji1]hahaha
    Ok I watched the video, this sounds valid when we speak about things
    you say: hey where did that cup come from,
    I say: oh it is just there by it self,
    you say: but there must be someone who brought it an put it on the table,
    I say: okay prove it..
    So you can go on a journey of searching for evidence to know who manufactured that and put it on this table,
    Now let's speak about evidence of God, you're obviously an educated man and know that all things around us are linked in reason, reason and outcome right? Let's not talk about a specific religion here it's merely a logic..
    The universe in this process must be the outcome, which is eventually linked to a reason, and that reason is what the science is still in process of discovering, so whatever that reason is, it should be there even though it's not specifically proven to you, even if the science didn't have an actual definition for it.. We call that reason a GOD..
    But if you want a proof like seeing a supernatural being, that's because you think that if there is a God you must see him, but since we still don't know how the God is, or let's say what is the (REASON) of existence of the universe is, we can't prove it in conventional ways..you see the evidence but can't find the reason.. That's where the belief comes, and yes I'm a believer what's wring with a belief..
    Yes "I" is used when I talk about myself, because you're talking to me, and yes still find that to be illogical..
    We could put things in formula to be more understandable
    A proof or a fact is=theory+evidence+ actual experiment or examining
    The believer has the formula of: theory+ evidence+ no examining, since we don't know how the God is, which in your opinion makes it invalid.. And subsequently a belief..
    Now the atheist formula is: theory+ evidence+no experiment since you can't re-create the universe to prove that, so it's also invalid and subsequently a belief..
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  3. #433
    Senior Member geedoenfj's Avatar
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    Default What Religion Do You Practice/Not Practice and Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Perhaps you might like to consider that the printing press was invented in 1440 and the first book printed was the bible. Just as books have an author, it was natural to think the world has an author. and so we have the author of the bible, which we call the God of the Book.

    But into this Garden of Eden we invented the electric telegraph in 1840, followed by the electronic media: radio, the telephone, the television, and the internet. And so the book was relegated to the content of the electric media, and so the God of the Book was relegated also.

    In the 19th century this was described dramatically and poetically as the Death of God, when all that happened was the God of the Book was relegated. Perhaps we could say, poetically, that the God of the Book is dead.

    But you will be pleased to know that as the God of the Book is dead, so he rises again as the God of the Internet.

    God is dead. Long live God.
    Yeah whenever a new invention is coming they say: okay you know what? there's no need for God anymore we can handle this!
    when in fact they're using the brain created by God, and trying to figure out things created by God and just putting them out together and BOOM A brand new invention! And yet they can't create anything organically from out of nowhere,That's typical God is dead alright!
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  4. #434
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geedoenfj View Post
    Man! we share the same MBIT type we're supposed to stand for each other here.. you just broke my heart [emoji174] [emoji1]hahaha
    Ok I watched the video, this sounds valid when we speak about things
    you say: hey where did that cup come from,
    I say: oh it is just there by it self,
    you say: but there must be someone who brought it an put it on the table,
    I say: okay prove it..
    So you can go on a journey of searching for evidence to know who manufactured that and put it on this table,
    Now let's speak about evidence of God, you're obviously an educated man and know that all things around us are linked in reason, reason and outcome right? Let's not talk about a specific religion here it's merely a logic..
    The universe in this process must be the outcome, which is eventually linked to a reason, and that reason is what the science is still in process of discovering, so whatever that reason is, it should be there even though it's not specifically proven to you, even if the science didn't have an actual definition for it.. We call that reason a GOD..
    But if you want a proof like seeing a supernatural being, that's because you think that if there is a God you must see him, but since we still don't know how the God is, or let's say what is the (REASON) of existence of the universe is, we can't prove it in conventional ways..you see the evidence but can't find the reason.. That's where the belief comes, and yes I'm a believer what's wring with a belief..
    Yes "I" is used when I talk about myself, because you're talking to me, and yes still find that to be illogical..
    We could put things in formula to be more understandable
    A proof or a fact is=theory+evidence+ actual experiment or examining
    The believer has the formula of: theory+ evidence+ no examining, since we don't know how the God is, which in your opinion makes it invalid.. And subsequently a belief..
    Now the atheist formula is: theory+ evidence+no experiment since you can't re-create the universe to prove that, so it's also invalid and subsequently a belief..
    I am not a "typical" ENFJ by any stretch of the word. At first blush I appear as an ESTJ. It's largely because of my enneagram type.

    You've made several errors. First, is that mundane things do not need to be subjected to the burden of proof, as it makes casual interaction impossible (the video points out this exactly near the end). Your cup example doesn't illustrate the burden of proof case either. First, we have a physical basis and understanding of what likely resulted in its placement. To claim that someone must have put it there is extremely reasonable, no one is going to deny that. Again, the video points out this near the end. Second, as you worded it, you are the one that made the claim; you stated that it's just there by itself. If I were to speak next, I would be asking for more information, not making the claim. By saying "surely someone must have put it there", is actually using precedent evidence of how objects are moved by people as a basis for countering you. I am challenging your statement of saying "it's just there", which offers nothing substantating to why it is there, to now giving a valid reason for basis of why. It would then be your turn to either combat my statement, or readjust your claim.

    I don't think that all things are linked in reason (unless I am misunderstanding your wording). What I do think is that we have the ability to understand why things happen and are the way they are by using logic, and science. Some things will be easier than others, and others will not have an answer in our lifetime.

    By you saying "we call that reason a god", is a unneeded placeholder. In the absence of any reason or evidence, it does no benefit to default to some sort of idea or explination. Worse, it can be damaging if it misleads investigation if it came from no support. Your statement boils down to the idea of "science can't explain it, so until then it must be god". To that sort of statement I say why? You are making the claim for one, and that line of reasoning is a non sequitur. Absence of reason or logic does not lead to there needing or being a god present.

    You go further to say that I want "proof like seeing". Yes. I want proof that is testable and quantifiable by logic and scientific process just like any other theory we have currently. Whether it be in physics, chemistry, psychology, whatever it may be. I need something to be workable within these confines, because up to this point everything has worked within these (and those that haven't intitally eventually came to function under them). You are making a special pleading case of "the evidence can't be studied, it's a different kind of evidence". Ok, even if we assume that's the case we still have yet to get evidence that can be worked with. Until that point I have no reason to believe.

    If you don't know "how the god is", then you have no way of understanding what it is, why it may be, or if it is even there in the first place. This is simply a statement of "it can't be understood, seen, or analyzed and proved in anyway. Nevertheless it's still there." which is irrational and can be dismissed because of it.

    Your final statement is trying to shift the burden or proof onto atheism by asking us to prove a negative; that's now how logic works. You made the claim, not I. As the saying goes "extraordinary claims, require extraordinary evidence".

    Sorry of this seems cold/harsh/mean/demeaning; not my intent at all.
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  5. #435
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    This proves my point of saying you back-peddle after you make a jab. Happens every time. That's why I and many people react poorly to you at first, or in some cases continuously. The way someone speaks and approaches things matters heavily to me. I'm sure you've noticed me jumping down peoples throats for communicating incorrectly/rudely many times in the past.
    If you look at my posting history you will see I treat people the way they treat me. Unless their first post I respond to is unusually stupid I tend to be nicer to people the first time I interact with them and give them the benefit of the doubt.


    And I pointed out that it was a derail and a distraction.
    Still relevant to the thread so very much on-topic. If you disagree with that you could have just ignored it and reported it for being off-topic instead of whining.


    As I said in the previous post, you seem to want to show that atheists have beliefs. Sure, whatever, everyone has beliefs and delusions. We need them.
    Thanks for giving me a perfect example of why I pick on atheism.
    You have no basis to even say "we need [beliefs and delusions]."
    You're presuming certain objectives for human life without appealing to any reason for the existence of those objectives or belief that they are good or even that human life is good.

    You and other atheists rely on the fundamental beliefs people have that are based in theistic beliefs and build unbelief on top of it.
    This is why I point this out all the time. Atheists are basically cheating and telling people to ignore the bedrock of belief they stand on and focus on not believing in a God above. If you had to build a world view from scratch a materialist atheist couldn't do it because their initial presumptions about reality don't really allow building anything since there is no meaning. Sure, you can make up meaning, but it has no connection to your beliefs about reality. THAT, is the fundamental difference between a theist and an atheist.

    A materialist world has no good, bad, ugly, beautiful, needs, etc. it only has whims formed by chemical reactions in the brain.


    At the same token, that doesn't invalidate or somehow make wrong the views atheists have, because those beliefs that atheists and everyone else has has nothing to do with the reasons for being atheist in the first place. It's a moot point, which is why I said it was a meaningless distinction and dismissed your comment.
    After all this time you still don't understand my argument.

    My argument is not that atheistic beliefs are wrong. My point is that according to materialist atheism there is no right or wrong in a moral sense.



    Nope, I don't want to argue it. If you want to think I do though in this area, have at it. I honestly don't care.
    Seriously now: EVERYONE thinks you have a sense of superiority. Maybe you should ask one of your besties here if it's true. They might explain it to you more gently than I would.
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  6. #436
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    After all this time you still don't understand my argument.
    Well, this is true because I honest to god do not see what you're trying to argue. What I do see all I can think is "...does this even matter?"


    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Thanks for giving me a perfect example of why I pick on atheism.
    You have no basis to even say "we need [beliefs and delusions]."
    You're presuming certain objectives for human life without appealing to any reason for the existence of those objectives or belief that they are good or even that human life is good.

    You and other atheists rely on the fundamental beliefs people have that are based in theistic beliefs and build unbelief on top of it.
    This is why I point this out all the time. Atheists are basically cheating and telling people to ignore the bedrock of belief they stand on and focus on not believing in a God above. If you had to build a world view from scratch a materialist atheist couldn't do it because their initial presumptions about reality don't really allow building anything since there is no meaning. Sure, you can make up meaning, but it has no connection to your beliefs about reality. THAT, is the fundamental difference between a theist and an atheist.

    A materialist world has no good, bad, ugly, beautiful, needs, etc. it only has whims formed by chemical reactions in the brain.

    My argument is not that atheistic beliefs are wrong. My point is that according to materialist atheism there is no right or wrong in a moral sense.
    This is not what you seemed to be arguing, not even close. I didn't see or understand your argument, because it was initially shortly worded, and I didn't think you or anyone could possibly be aruging for something like this.

    It seems like you think it's impossible for people to take axioms. It also seems like you think that nihilism is impossible for anyone to hold of believe.

    This sounds like arguments my father used to make to me when I was a kid. Interestingly, he's atheist, but I had NO idea he was until 2 years ago. I thought he was christian all my life and still held the beliefs he was raised with. He was constantly arguing that "all beliefs come from a religious or spiritual root, even for atheists they have them. All morals come from it too."

    ...so? Is that supposed to change anything? It doesn't. I and other atheists do not need a concept or idea of a god to be a good person or have good morals. Also, does there need to be a connection between meaning and reality? Unless I am misunderstanding it, I don't think that I do.


    Again, this seems all like completely pointless hair splitting. As such let me try and get to a point then: I am staunchly atheist, I have a pretty darn solid sense of right and wrong in a moral sense. Does that mean that I can't be atheist? Because I can assure you, I am. Or, do you think that I actually don't have a sense or right or wrong?

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    If you look at my posting history you will see I treat people the way they treat me. Unless, their first post I respond to is unusually stupid I tend to be nicer to people the first time I interact with them and give them the benefit of the doubt.
    While I want to, for the sake of the thread I am not going to push this further. I'll simply say: I partially agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Still relevant to the thread so very much on-topic. If you disagree with that you could have just ignored it and reported it for being off-topic instead of whining.
    I didn't whine? I already explained why I said what I said. I didn't feel the need to explain in detail with my first statement. It wasn't a derail from the thread, but a derail from the discussion I was currently having with someone else.

    See, this is why I tend to get so irritated with you in these topics. It begins with hair splitting, and continues like this the entire time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Seriously now: EVERYONE thinks you have a sense of superiority. Maybe you should ask one of your besties here if it's true. They might explain it to you more gently than I would.
    Just because I seem like I have a sense of superiority, doesn't mean that I actually think I am better than anyone.


    Let's leave all the side discusssions off though and end it here. (everything below the dotted lines)
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  7. #437
    Senior Member Proctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geedoenfj View Post
    Your complicated body system was created by God is foolish idea= your PC was created by a manufacturer is a foolish idea..
    Why do you think the manufacturer would show himself to you any way? As for God, he would show himself to you after death anyway so he don't need you to believe him, and don't need you to make judges about believers, take your atheism with you and take off!!
    Hm, I don't that's a very good comparison. Mainly because I can pinpoint the creation of that PC. I can locate the company that made it and the person in charge of design Beyond that I can trace the timeline in the evolution of the computer. The date when random access memory was introduced, the creation of ENIAC, of the Turing machine, of Babbage's Difference Engine. I can even show the evolution in thought that led to it's creation.

    You can point me to scripture or describe your beliefs in God's design, but there's no proof of the involvement of a higher being. You can interpret the evidence to suggest otherwise, but it's an interpretation without solid evidence to back it up. That's not to say it's a foolish idea, just lacking in precise details.

    I get the feeling you've been judged before by atheists, insulted perhaps. I'm sorry you were treated that way, but it doesn't mean you should act the same way in return. Just because many here may not share your beliefs doesn't mean we can't have an opinion.

  8. #438
    Junior Member kaepsae's Avatar
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    Oh boy, time to offend some people.

    I'm an agnostic atheist. I can't know for sure, if somebody did indeed decide to create the world, but for now, I just want to find out the most objective truth possible. Because the one thing that annoys me about religion it's that it's mostly feeling based (I know right, coming from a sentimental INFP, absurd).
    Religious people BELIEVE there's something out there, they BELIEVE in a higher power, they BELIEVE. They don't KNOW, they just believe. And don't get me wrong, believing it's absolutely fine, as long as it doesn't offend someone's human rights. For example I like to believe, that people are usually good-willed and everything's gonna be alright, although it's probably the opposite (don't burst my bubble, please).
    But you know, just believe away, make your and somebody else's world a better, more reasonable place. Because yeah, it's chaotic out there.

    But more on the 'why I don't believe':
    I need so much more than just someone's word for it. And to be honest, subjective experiment won't do it either, I had had my fair share of sleep paralysis(es?) and vivid dreams, which felt beyond real. Soo, any ideas how to become religious? I'd love have the happiness some religious people have.

  9. #439
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaepsae View Post
    Oh boy, time to offend some people.

    I'm an agnostic atheist. I can't know for sure, if somebody did indeed decide to create the world, but for now, I just want to find out the most objective truth possible. Because the one thing that annoys me about religion it's that it's mostly feeling based (I know right, coming from a sentimental INFP, absurd).
    Religious people BELIEVE there's something out there, they BELIEVE in a higher power, they BELIEVE. They don't KNOW, they just believe. And don't get me wrong, believing it's absolutely fine, as long as it doesn't offend someone's human rights. For example I like to believe, that people are usually good-willed and everything's gonna be alright, although it's probably the opposite (don't burst my bubble, please).
    But you know, just believe away, make your and somebody else's world a better, more reasonable place. Because yeah, it's chaotic out there.

    But more on the 'why I don't believe':
    I need so much more than just someone's word for it. And to be honest, subjective experiment won't do it either, I had had my fair share of sleep paralysis(es?) and vivid dreams, which felt beyond real. Soo, any ideas how to become religious? I'd love have the happiness some religious people have.
    So when do you get offensive?

    I'm indifferent to your thinking, feeling or fate.

  10. #440
    Privileged Sh!tlord ZNP-TBA's Avatar
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    Agnostic-atheist here. So I guess the label is self explanatory. Born a Catholic, joined a Christian ( non denominational) ministry for a while.

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